The Courage to Recover: From Childhood Trauma to Sobriety and Purpose: Rich Dunning part 2

Welcome Back And Why It Matters

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome back to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne. We're continuing our conversation with International Book Award winner Rich Dunning, and his story is truly one of survival. From childhood trauma and homelessness to alcoholism, Alcoholics Anonymous and Recovery, Rich has taken some of the most painful chapters of his life and turned them into purpose. Today he uses what he survived to make a difference in the lives of others. In part two, we're going to talk about recovery and resilience of what happens when you decide your past may be part of your story, but it doesn't get to write the

The Teacher Who Protected Dignity

SPEAKER_04 0:34

ending. Let's jump back in the story that really struck me too, and it made me think of all the teachers that have kids sitting in front of them that are going through the same thing that you were going through. And like a message to teachers, you know, the hat story.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

That seems that chapter that you're referring to, is it My Blue Nikes? Um man, that chapter alone could be its own book. It could be. I commend teachers, teachers like Miss Terrace, and that's what we're talking about. Miss Terrace was an amazing person for me. She was my math teacher. She always took interest in me and other kids as well, in a place that otherwise was very dangerous. And she didn't know what was going on at home or anything like that. But she always treated me with dignity and and and so forth. And I had a crush on her, I'll admit. In this particular case, I I'll I'll save the details for the book, but my stepfather decided to take a different tactic in terms of traumatizing me. Um, he had found out something that I did, which wasn't anything bad. I was simply protecting my siblings. And instead of his usual physical violence that I would have almost preferred this time around, he decided to take scissors to my head and just chop me up. And then those times, and what if anyone knows what a shag was, that's what I had. I had a shag haircut, and by the time he was done with me, I had just patches and I was just so traumatized by it. And my mom did nothing. And the next morning I was still expected to go to school and not look. At school, you weren't allowed to wear hats during that period. Um there was a lot of gang activity that was going on, and people would wear certain colors or what have you. I went to school with a hat on. And Miss Terrace was my first period. And I she would she walked in, everyone quieted down. I everyone noticed I had a hat on, and she uh she's like, Rich, what's going on there? Or she would call me Richie and uh Richie, let's remove the hat. And I ignored her and I put my head down. And a couple seconds later she readdressed it and I ignored her again. Then she walked over to me and she looked at me and she can sense that there was something really wrong. She says, Okay, hey, and uh she said, I want you to come outside with me outside the doors. And he she told the students to do something else. So now we're outside, and she says to me, I want you to take off your hat, Rich, in a loving manner. I reluctantly did, and I started to tear up. Here I am, 12 years old, and I could see the horror in her eyes, and she started to cry. She says, Okay, here's what I want you to do. She puts the hat back on me. She goes, I want you to sit in the teacher's lounge until third period. And let everyone know. I'll let everyone know that you're there for a reason. And I will come get you third period. I do what she says. She gets back third period, she has this little bag, she opens it up, or in that private room, and it's clippers. She proceeded to give me a haircut. She gave me what we would call a Caesars haircut, a Roman haircut. And my hair was never that short before. And she treated me with such a kindness and was so gentle with me. And she told me that I'm gonna love this haircut because her brother was in the ROTC and she used to do these all the time. She never once asked what happened. Which I can sense she knew. And then after that, I remember her tearing up again and just giving me this big hug. She goes, Yeah, I don't want to talk about it. I'm here for you. And that was the kindness of a teacher that day.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Yeah. She didn't allow any shame. She didn't allow any embarrassment. She handled this privately. You know, that says so much about who she was as a teacher. And it is a lesson, I think. There are so many kids. So many kids. I mean, I have friends who are educators, and especially nowadays, you know, there are so many kids that are being abused or living in their cars, or what I mean, they just have such awful stories, and they're going to school and trying to learn. So those kind of teachers are just really, it's amazing that they can reach the kid where they are. Because honestly, I'm assuming that even though that you were a sponge, that it's hard to learn when you come into the classroom like that.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Oh, you're you're always on, that's for sure. You the I was cool with the armor. The armor never comes off. The level of anxiety never really dissipates. Any noise you might hear can startle. I remember even as an adult. I was never TSD. Yeah. I can never I'm not good in real public places where it's loud or there's loud music or things like that. I don't care very well. Very well. You know, and more sensitive today more than ever at my age, even though I've dealt with a lot of my trauma. It's something that I still can't bring to peace, for example. Like my wife, you know, we do intimate things, meaning in intimate settings, like uh small concerts or whatever. But oh, hey, let's go to uh a big event or you know, I love sports. I I don't I don't find it comfortable going to a big arena or a football stadium or anything. It puts me in a in a really alert, kind of anxious, and I don't feel anxiety anymore, but it it level it it raises my level of awareness.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

Yeah, I I understand.

Baseball As Shelter And A Future

SPEAKER_04 7:08

One of the things though that really helped get you through was baseball. Yeah. And I was so glad that you had something for you, you know. I think that that was just so important. What did baseball give you?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yeah, you know, I loved baseball. And um, for the folks that will reach silence was my first language, will understand why I love baseball. It's one of the places I got to spend a good seven months in when I was homeless as a 11-year-old, I believe, during one of our many evictions. Through him, I really gained a love for baseball and learning how to play baseball fundamentally. I never thought that I got a partial baseball scholarship as a result. And I that scholarship saved me in a sense. That did. And I was able to keep that after my severe injury in year two, which you guys would read about. Um I was able to keep that scholarship. So baseball meant a lot to me. Um, you know, I had this grandiose vision that I was gonna be this great baseball player or whatever, and I was gonna make it, and that was the ride I was gonna take. Um, it wasn't the case, but it gave me an education that could never be taken away from me. Right. Uh in terms of my college education.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

Right. It gave you what you needed, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

I wouldn't have a life today if it wasn't for that piece of paper.

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

That's for sure.

unknown 8:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Well, and the fact that you did graduate from high school, just even high school. I mean, you did go to college, but the fact that you graduated from high school and then your family wasn't even there.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Which I was the first one to go to I was the first one to go to high school and college. Um my parents never graduated from high school.

SPEAKER_04 9:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Well, you didn't need them there.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah. Yeah, they didn't even understand what that meant in terms of it was another way of them trying to minimize what I accomplished, I think. Right. Because I think when he looked in the mirror, when like for example, when he called me dog, I think he was kind of referring to himself, maybe he was projecting.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Maybe definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah. Um, well, you know what I think about it? Because I try to understand, I haven't forgiven, and I don't think I ever will, but I try to understand what that psyche looks like, what that makeup looks like in a person like that in general. How did that per I mean, obviously there's been repetitive repetitiveness in terms of generational cycles and abuse. That's happened. And it seems to be the MO for a lot of um people that inflict pain on others, whether you're narcissistic or violent, etc. Right. I try to understand it, but it doesn't mean I have to accept it or forgive it. At least that's the way I feel.

SPEAKER_04 10:08

I would think that there would be some degree of jealousy.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Yeah, because here you were young, smart, athletic. You had so much. And he didn't. Of his own doing. I mean, he he had lost his chance in life, really, at that stage, and he wasn't turning it around. And I think he might have been jealous and trying to ruin your life too and say, hey, you know, where you come from, you're gonna be just like me. And I think with some of the things that he did with you when you were younger, trying to teach you with what a real man was, um, yeah, I think he was trying to create that.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

I agree with that. I agree with that. Because he would never let me forget that I will always be nothing.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

Yeah, well, I but you were, and you did have other people in your life, and that's what I want to get to because there were people in your life that were you know dropping seeds, and I think that that all those along with baseball, all and yourself, because you were a key component in this, um, to being able to survive, but you did have quite a few people that were put in your path. Frank and Miriam uh were two, and they lived upstairs from you, and they showed you a kindness. And I think that they were maybe some of the first people that you saw, wow, you know, adults can be kind.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, they were they were kind of like surrogate grandparents to me and my sister early on. Um, and kind of as little, you know, my mom when obvious when she was single during that short time frame, you know, she was working her tail off, just trying to make things work because I had a deadbeat father, essentially. Two of them at the end when you really look at it, but um, they would watch us, they wouldn't ask for anything. It was it was always a pleasant moment that they would treat us like human beings. That was yeah, those those were fond memories when I was a small child, you know, between the ages of three and maybe six.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

And those are important. And Monica's Monica's family, uh, they welcomed you after the fire, and her dad even declined for you to pay rent. I mean, they really did show you what a family, how a family lives.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And he gave me the he is the gentleman that gave me the love for for sports and for baseball specifically.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

See, see, all these little nuggets that became big, and then Chris with the music. And you know, I think that he gave you one of the biggest gifts, and it took me back to that goodwill hunting kind of message. If you've ever seen that movie where Rabbit is taking Matt Damon and saying, you know, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. And then so here, Chris is saying, You don't belong to Hector.

unknown 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:16

I mean, Mike Mic Drop.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah, he's very much in my life today. Oh, good. Like one of my biggest cheerleaders. Um, my book, Silence was my first language, was recognized. I know it's still a pre-sale, but it was recognized. I was recognized as a distinguished author for 2026 by the International Book Impact Awards, and the gala is next year in Arizona and uh or in January. And he, I invited him and his wife to be there because I want to honor him. He had a major part in saving me in those teenage years where I was I was doing a lot of the right things, but I was also taking a lot of left turns and fighting it and and and acting out.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

He he he saved you from what was happening to you, but he also called you out.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Tough love. Yeah tough love he gave me.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

I mean, what he gave you was such a gift, and he loved you really regardless of.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

He still does.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

That's so great.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Unconditional. Like the the the big brother I never had, always checking in. Again, my biggest cheerleader. My biggest cheerleader.

SPEAKER_04 14:30

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm I'm so glad that you have that because he I think gave you part of your life back uh from what everybody else was trying to rob you of. But then now I want to I have to talk about this. I have to talk

Grandfather’s Wisdom And Stolen Aid

SPEAKER_04 14:44

about the five days with your grandfather because this to me changed me, and he's not even my grandfather.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

So it's I tell you, this man, it was incredible.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

I wrote it all down because his words, he was so wise.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

He's such a wise man, and he would always it was like I always can I always like referring him to like Confucius or something because it was always a question, not necessarily telling me what to do, but planting the seed. And he was just a master of that. That last time really was the last time that we had that intimacy together. Something very unfortunate happened. You guys will read about it in the book. But essentially, the bottom line was I was out of baseball, school became my number one focus, and in those days, I still had my partial scholarship, but I still needed financial aid. And you still needed your parents, whether they were or weren't parents, to sign off on it. And in those days, they would send the money directly to your home, and then you would take it to the burst or so forth. So I start getting these nasty grams at school, about 14K that's not been paid, and where's the money? I'm like, it hasn't come. This is how naive. The last thing I would think is that my parents, my stepfather and my mother would ever steal my money. They stole $14,000 from me and essentially almost ended my college career at year three. Yep. If it wasn't for my grandfather providing those funds, I don't know that I would be here. He had to pay off, he had to pay off school, and then we were still responsible for the financial aid debts. On top of that, right? I had to pay that off as an adult because essentially it was under my name with a parent co-signature.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Right, right. Yeah. Thank God for your grandfather in so many ways. And his words, okay, I wrote some of these down. His words, a journey is long only when you carry what has already ended. Fatigue is not always from distance, it comes from holding an identity past its usefulness. The body grows tired when the mind refuses to release what no longer protects it. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Amen. That is that is verbatim. I never forget that. I can recite that all the time. It is that that was him. That was just oh my gosh. Mic drop, as you said earlier. Yeah. Right, right. And it would just resonate with me. I was like, what did you just say? And I was like, oh, okay. It's just amazing, man. What an amazing man. I can't believe that his son came from him, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Well he also said that you confuse endurance with struggle, and endurance is what you survived. Strength is what you build. What did that distinction mean to you? What did you take from that?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Two re two different one was a negative because at one point I took that quote and I viewed strength as power. I was no longer gonna have anyone power be powerful over me. I was gonna be powerful other over others, and even if it hurt them, you know. Not in the physical sense, but in a manner of I'm going to challenge everything. But the I think the the other side of that, the strength and endurance side is for me, it's like making sure that you can put your head on that pillow at the end of the night and not taking anything for granted that's been given to you. And those those very thoughts, even when I was drinking, remain that ethic uh remained to just I'm gonna outdo anyone, I'm going to prove everyone wrong on it every day, I'm going to be the standard. Right. That's that's what kind of it meant to me at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

You, I think, exemplify so much of your grandfather. Uh and one of the things that he also said, which I think I'm going to use all my kids, um, is responsibility is not the same as shame. Shame immobilizes. Responsibility allows movement. And if you are capable of choosing wrong, then you are capable of choosing differently next time.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

I wish I would have learned that lesson a little bit sooner, though. I I I heard that one. I didn't listen to that one, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

I know, but that is so good. I have thought about that so many times since I read that and wrote it down. Um I mean, it's it's something that I will remember for my own self and I will say it to my kids.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Can I can I share with you why that one took a while to adopt? There there is always this constant tug of war between two human beings with inside me. One that that one that was full of shame, um, imposter syndrome, um, one that didn't feel like he wasn't good enough for anything. And then there was another one that could take on the world. I'm gonna prove everyone on yeah, prove everyone wrong. When it came to that quote, I think the person that was going through all of that was winning. And that's why he wouldn't let that change or responsibility take take its full effect.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

Okay. Well, and I mean, I think that what happens to us when we're kids, I mean, when there's so much trauma like what you went through, I mean, it lived in you. It was living in you. And when you thought that you would let go of some of it, and then Hector actually ended up being released from prison, and I can't imagine why your mom you know, I I don't want to judge, but it it was very hard to watch Reed her allow him to come back into your world again, even though he wasn't allowed to be in your house, really. I mean, technically, the lease even said that he's not allowed on the property, but she allowed him back. But then eventually, you know, it started to continue again. The the beatings and the different things, his his old behaviors came back. Of course, of course they did. But your old behaviors also came back with that as well. You know, I mean you froze, you store you still became, you started to become that kid again. And I think that that happened so many times. What happened inside you when you heard Scarf becoming violent again? And what did that experience help you recognize within your own self?

SPEAKER_01 21:41

It's interesting because you know, here is a college kid whose physical stature was I towered over him in a sense from a from a physical standpoint. And he was definitely weaker. And because I was so emotionally trained, I never saw myself. As a strong man, as someone that could take him. And he did some tough things during that time, as you know, including in a tip raping my mother, taking her against her will. Yeah. And I sat there and did nothing. And that crushes me to this very day. I didn't protect her because I was scared. Here I am, 20 years old, um, strong, but I was weak. I was weak.

SPEAKER_04 22:28

There's times in my life that I have not moved when I should have. I did not speak up when I should have, because of my old trauma. And I can blame myself for it. And I'm sure maybe there was something in me that could have moved, but I also really believe that trauma can keep us frozen when it is just like what we went through when we were kids. And it it just it silences us, silences just like the title of your book. It it does, it it silences us in all ways.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

It totally is. You just you go back to that child. You really do. You do, you do.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

You do, and you were not a 20-year-old man standing there when that was happening. I just want you to know that. I I know I hear some of the blame within yourself still for that, but you were probably a a very small child standing there while that was happening.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

He owned my mind. He did. He did. It's that conditioning, right? Yeah. You're conditioned to to being in a certain way or performing or behaving in a certain way. Uh, I was conditioned to fear that man.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

It's really interesting how when you see somebody, maybe it's been even 20 years, you when you see them again, you become that person that you were when you were across from them.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

That's happened a couple of times because when I first cut them off, I'll cut the family off. There were a couple of times where, yeah, I mean I don't even know if I want to say I would try to make it work or whatever. Uh, but each time I saw him, I kind of got this little knot in my stomach. And the fact that they're still together is just crazy.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

That's mind-blowing.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

I can't even believe that. Because I know the violence continued for many years. I don't know that that's true today, but it did continue for many years afterwards. I mean, these they're older folks now. I mean, they're in the mid-70s, but unbelievable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

I just can't even believe that. Yeah. Okay.

Success Outside While Drinking Inside

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Now I want to switch gears a little bit. Sure. You were building a successful career in the medical device industry, and you were managing people, making important decisions, and functioning in high pressure environments while privately struggling with things that other people might never have suspected. I mean, the numbing and the things that protected you were now really full-blown blowing up alcohol, of course. And you grew up witnessing the effects of Scarface's alcoholism on the family. But as you got older, alcohol became part of your own life, and it actually you did start pretty young, like you pointed out earlier. What did alcohol give you in the beginning? And then what happened? Uh, did you begin recognizing that your drinking was becoming a problem?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

And I was a house of cards, you know. First of all, I would have never thought that the life that I was able to put together would be my life. That was unimagable. I mean, I I was blessed by God with a beautiful wife, three fabulous children, uh a beautiful home. I I it was like it was a textbook. It's like, oh, the perfect family. It was a house of cards. I was a train wreck. Alcohol was my source of peace. Initially, it it's what you know I continued to use to numb the stuff that would fester a little bit, uh, even after I left. And here's here's this poor woman. I wouldn't say let me rephrase that. She's no poor woman. That girl, that's my lioness, my wife. She is the toughest cookie I know. But here's this woman who was raised in a completely different environment, right? Uh, just the most loving family, the most loving life, etc. And she marries me and all of this baggage, and not knowing to the extent of how deep that baggage is or how full that baggage is. And now she's figuring it out and trying to deal with this Tasmanian devil. I love her so much that you know, that fact that we're sitting here 35 years later together is no small feat. Um, she is my lioness. I would have thrown my out a long time ago. Well, from what I put her and my kids through, and I wasn't physical or anything like that. For me, it was I was gregarious, I was obnoxious. And it's funny when you when you think about when I would come home, the kids would start to behave the way I behaved as a kid. And I wasn't physical, they would scatter. No one wanted to be around dad because all he would do is chat, chat, chat, chat and sort of squares. And then as the drinking got worse and it became my isolation uh tool, it it I was constantly anxious and paranoid, and I was gonna hurt you before you hurt me. That was my attitude. I was drinking a bottle of bourbon a day. I was blacking out at one point, even after one drink, where I would start at one place and wake up somewhere else on the other side of the state. I even woke up in another country once. That's what my family was dealing with. Yeah, that was what I put them through. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it was my only cope. Nothing changed before alcohol. Alcohol was not. I did not get off that hamster meal.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

When I was younger, I used alcohol to get me through to Num, through all the abuse and different things. And um, when I became sober, I had to learn different ways of dealing with what I was carrying. And that's really difficult. It wasn't simply about removing alcohol from my life. And as I know you know, it was about developing the tools to learn to learn to live differently. When you began recognizing the role alcohol was playing in your life, there are levels of brokenness. And I just want to say, as your story unfolded, you went to the bottom several times, I would say, and I kept thinking, okay, this is it. This is this is his bottom. Nope, you went further.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Okay, now this Oh, I knew how the I I would say my favorite song was, yeah, what just when you think you hit rock bottom, I kept digging.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

You did. I mean, what was it, Gina? What was it that actually brought you to the point where you were like, okay, I I now this is it. I surrender.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah, that's a tough one for me because I had put my family through so much at that point. Uh I should have probably my rock bottom, I think about my rock bottom when I woke up in another country, and any normal person would have probably freaked out and tried to get home as soon as possible. I doubled down and kept drinking for another five days. But I would continue to drink for another seven months. And at that point, my wife had was she had had it. It was, you know, and I don't blame her, of course. She um, it was about, you know, the kids first, and she wasn't gonna let anything, anything or anyone ruin or damage her cubs, as she would like to say. And and I

The Vacation That Became Rock Bottom

SPEAKER_01 30:08

got that. And I had somehow convinced her that summer in July of uh 2017 that uh just let's just go away for a few days. I'm I'm trying, I'm trying to get it together. And uh she reluctantly said yes, and so we went to the coast in South Carolina near where her dad lives and tucked into the hotel. Things were going smoothly. I actually wound up that a couple of days later, I I wound up playing golf with her dad, and we had such a beautiful morning, and then I remember him, you know, kissing me on the forehead, and he even said to me, He's like, We're we're rooting for you, Rich, and um I love you. And that resonated. And then he took off. And rather than just jumping in the darn car, I saw the clubhouse in the distance, and it was like neon lights flashing in Vegas. Come in, come in. And it was midday, and I had my first drink. I probably haven't had a drink in a few days by then, and I was going through some withdrawals as well. I sat there for about four hours and I got completely face, not gonna even sugarcoat it. And then do what I usually did because I was a notorious drunk driver. Thank God I'd never killed anyone or killed myself or a DUI. I drive back to the hotel and everyone's by the pool. I see my phone and she had called so many times. And my father-in-law called several times because she's calling him. Where's Rich? As soon as she saw me, she knew. And rather than confront that, I see my youngest, who was 10 years old at the time. He's like, Dad, let's go play ping pong. And it's, you know, outdoors by the pool and so forth. And I'm like, okay, and I'm just completely drunk, and I'm trying to play ping pong. I'm falling, and it looks really bad. So then she gathers the children. She literally gathers me and whips me upstairs late afternoon. She went off, and rightly so. I wasn't allowed to go to dinner or anything. They went off to dinner, and I doubled down yet again and went downstairs by myself and started drinking even more. That security had to bring me back to my room. And we're on the fifth floor. They come back that night. I had long passed out. That morning, I wake up around 5:36 a.m. and my brain is literally falling out of my head. I look around, we had a suite, I see everyone out, and I knew I failed. I knew I failed that. And I said, I can't do this anymore. So I walked outside onto the balcony, and I decided I was gonna take my life in. Started climbing over the ledge, and I'm ready to let go. And just before I let go, my 10-year-old walks out there and startled me and asked me what I was doing, and I just lost it. Climb back over, I kind of let go, barely made it through the doors, and I just fall to my knees, and everyone's kind of waking up, and I just start calling and I said, I give up. I can't do this anymore. Forgive me. And I remember my 10-year-old just coming over and hugging me. My wife was angry, she was in tears, and I remember saying, That's it, no more.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

That was day one. That was day one for me.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

And it's nine and a half it's nine and a half years later. And let's see. It was the most incredible choice I've ever made in my life because what transpired after that has been a true healing process. It didn't happen overnight. It didn't happen overnight. Um, I would say probably right after COVID is when things really started to come into

AA, Rehab, And Feeling Seen

SPEAKER_01 33:57

place. A lot of therapy. AA saved my life.

SPEAKER_04 34:01

Have you been to Akron? Have you been to Akron, Ohio?

SPEAKER_01 34:04

And um I have not. I've been asked that before. I have not. Um, you know, visit visiting where Bill W did his work.

SPEAKER_04 34:13

I mean, I have not, but um I've got to walk all the same places. Stan Hewitt, where it began, and Dr. Boggs, all of his hiding places uh in his house, which by the way, well, there's the the 12-step Bible is right when you walk inside and it's encased. And then um you can see where he hid all of his bottles and everything, and they give you a great tour. Two things about it though. First of all, is that when you walk up the stairs to the house, there's 12 steps. I don't know if it I mean there's I wonder.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah, it's not mentioned in the book. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Yeah, there's 12 steps to the house. And um also, whenever you arrive, whenever, there's always somebody sitting there, and they say, Welcome home.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Wow. I'm gonna have to make a journey. You hear me? You're the step person that brings it out. Yeah, I'm gonna have to make a journey.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

Yeah, it it's such a great experience to go there. I've even taken my one son there, and he just keeps talking about it and he wants to go back. And I think part of it is just because of how welcome you feel.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

AA is a powerful thing, at least for me. It may not be for everyone, but there's no place on earth where you can walk into a place, find different economic backgrounds, different colors of skin. It's the same, everyone has the same story, and you can't say anything that's gonna shock anyone because they've been there, done that, and heard it a million times over. It felt walking into AA and receiving AA on my knees, felt like shedding all of my clothes and being naked and not being ashamed anymore. That's how I I equate AA. It's it was so freeing to be among people who can understand me. And I have done those fancy rehabs and all that nonsense. There is nothing like AA, at least for me.

SPEAKER_04 36:24

Yeah. I want to talk about Gina for a second because um you have pretty much painted her, but she was a godsend to you. She really, I think, was one of the reasons that, like you said, I mean, she is one of the reasons that you are here today, uh and and your kids. But when you were doing all of these things and working, and you know, I think that one of the biggest things that was standing between her and you, besides the drinking, was just the trauma. I mean, from the get-go, as much as you loved her, you would keep her at a distance. You started bringing in those same, that same old rich that you had been before. And it was really hard for you to shed that. How I mean, talk about both sides of it from her perspective and from yours, what was going on, and how difficult was that on your marriage?

Marriage, Trauma, And Learning Trust

SPEAKER_01 37:25

It was very difficult. There, I mean, it would our marriage had been strained probably the decade before. I would say since 2008, 2009, and there we sat in 2017, is when I got sober, July 2017. It was very frustrating for her because she was or she is, I should say, such a communicator. Her family, it's all about love and communication and working things out. And here's a guy who doesn't want to share anything, or this is a woman who married me and loved me, and uh I I don't trust her with my feelings. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna hurt her and not be nice and not include her in my decision-making process. It was like I'm the boss, you're on the sideline, and I hurt her a lot. And like when I mentioned earlier, I was like, I don't know how she's still here. I don't know why she stayed. I do know why she stayed. Uh when why she stayed, A was because and she would say this to me is that you know, I knew that you were broken after I really got to know you, and I thought I knew you, but I also knew there was a person in there that was good, that that person deserved a chance. And she suffered a lot. She suffered a lot because of what I put her through. You know, emotional distress and trauma is real. I mean trauma is trauma, whether it's physical or emotional. I didn't respect her with my feelings. I I didn't I didn't I didn't respect anyone with my feelings. I knew all I knew was how to hurt. You took your wife's name. Yes, yes, I did.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Will you talk about what went through you to be able to take her name instead of her, you know, Gina, take yours?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yes, and oh by the way, I hear a lot of men do that these days because it's in fashion. I did it in 1994. Um, so she is one of four girls. So my father-in-law the the the name would end with him basically. And um, he's been such a figure in my life even early on, you know, um, when he didn't even know me. He was just always so kind and gentle and empowering to me that when I had asked for her name in marriage, my name, other than my grandfather, and no disrespect to him, my name really meant nothing to me. And what an honor it would be to carry on that name. And as a result, two of my boys will carry on the Dunning name. So, yeah, that's how it came to be. And of course, he was just so honored, and my wife was blown away, and and she's still a Dunning, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

I I just think that that's amazing that you did that.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

So yeah, and I've been a Dunning a lot longer now than I've been, you know, with my former last name. Right. Which was Sans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Well, it was a different way of putting that life down and picking up a new one.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Yes, definitely. Definitely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

What one of the things that was really powerful in your book was so many people make mistakes, they do all these things, but then they live in it for the rest of their lives. And that's it, that's end of story, because they are just so devastated with the choices that they've made. Uh, but you made amends. You did it in a way that, gosh, it was such a good example. And one of the things you said about steps was I didn't complete the steps, the steps completed me.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yes. I just got the chills when you said that because that is so true. The steps completed me.

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Yeah.

The Steps, Amends, And Accountability

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Talk about the steps and how it made you.

unknown 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

You know, I'll preface this with, you know, I mentor others, you know, as a sponsor. And I sometimes would get people that would come and into sobriety, and then the week later they're done with the steps. I'm like, I don't think you are. Because it took me a long time. Step one was the most difficult because I fought God all the way, you know. Way I mean, the constant fights that I've had with God throughout my life, who is now a central part of my level. You know, where were you? Where were you when I needed you? So that first step, dropping to my knees and believing that there was a power greater than me and surrendering to that, whoo, that took a while. Yeah. Each step presented, it was sort of uh a mission for me to accomplish. Once I took sobriety serious and I was done, because right after I got sober, I went to a hardcore rehab that was part-time inpatient, meant that you were allowed to go to work, but after work, you had to come and you had to blow. And if you blew, you were gone. And then it wasn't all rosy. It was like, this is what your life is gonna look like if you don't stop drinking. You're gonna die, you're gonna be sick, or you're gonna wind up in jail. It was hardcore. And we had some of the most tremendous speakers come in, including folks from AA. And then that's how I bridged AA because on weekends we were supposed to go to three meetings a day, and I was home. But each step represented a mission that I needed to take seriously, as scary as some of those steps were. I needed to come to terms with those steps, and I needed to do it. And man, talk about calling someone you hurt or bad and saying, hi, it's rich, or knocking on someone's door, hoping that you don't get smacked or something, you know, it was very freeing for me. Every time it took me nearly well, I wouldn't say I'm even completed because I had I made amends about three months ago with a guy who loved me, who cared about me, who was there when I was drinking. It's like I'm here for you. And I would call him at night and just curse him out and hang up. Darren, if you're listening to this, you know who you are. But um I finally got the nerve to call him because he posted on one of my sites when I was promoting, you know, sobriety. I'm proud of you. Rich. And he was one of the guys that I was still afraid to call. And he took my call with so much love. It wasn't always like that. But at least for me, I think back of my what my grandfather would say about accountability and responsibility. I now needed to be accountable and responsible for my actions. I was never a victim, but I don't deserve to even try and present myself as a victim today. I'm a drunk. I chose that. I chose to be a drunk. You know, I can't say I can't always use that for the rest of my life that, oh well, I was made a drunk because this is how I was brought up. That crutch gets old for a lot of people, including myself. So I went on a journey of accountability and responsible for what I did. And listen, my family didn't trust me for two at least two years. Just like when we think of Ohio and a doctor and so forth about him finding, finding bottles. We would find bottles a year later and I would get afraid. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's an old bottle. It's not because I still didn't earn trust, right? Right. Um, but those steps were so special and are special to me with my life. It's how I live my life by those 12 steps. And I'm always making amends because I'm I will always continue to make mistakes as a human being. I'm accountable for me. Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

And Gina decided to um join Al-Anon, which I think is so important for anybody whose person is in alcoholism, surrounded by it, you know, trying to make a difference, they're in treatment, they're doing all these things. And it's so important because the whole family is sick. Yeah. And I learned very early that when, you know, everybody around the alcoholic needs to also get help. And Al Anon, it's such an amazing program for anybody that has lived with it.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

And, you know, I think she started earlier on, and I think that biggest takeaway, and to the families that are going through it right now, I want you guys to know that I love you. That you have you're not responsible for that person drinking. You know, too often we think about the person who's drinking, how selfish and narcissistic this can be. And because if and then the families are suffering on the sidelines, not knowing what to do. That's not your job. That person has to find his or her own rock bottom. But then we get sober and guess what happens? That family gets put on the sideline again because our sobriety comes first. You're not alone. And if you're out there listening to this, I hear you and I see you and I love you because I know what I put my family through. I do. And you don't deserve it.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

Well, I'm glad that Gina, that you guys got healthy together because I think working the program together really deepens the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Absolutely. And I could have never imagined the life that we have today. She's my best friend. I feel like we're dating again, especially since our kids are young adults and out of the house. And our relationship, first of all, I've never been so free of with my thoughts and my feelings and my emotions ever. I was never vulnerable. Men I taught not to be vulnerable. I just got chills. She's like, Rich, at one point, she's like, Okay, you're giving me too much now. Can you take a break? Um, I I love her to death. She's my hero. As I said before, she's my lioness. She is the toughest, strongest person I know. And I'm so thankful for her. Um with what she's done with our children. Those children are so with them because of her. Because I had checked out for a good decade.

SPEAKER_03 48:02

Well, I'm glad that you still are a father to your kid.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

I am. I love those knuckleheads so much, and we're s you know, we have such a good relationship, you know. And I talk to them about hey, you have you have the genes. So I can't tell you what to do, what not to do. But you've seen what's happened to your dad, and I just want what's best for you. And they know. Yeah, maybe they're gonna have to make their own choices and their own sure.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

But they know.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

And they respect my journey, they respect my journey in sobriety. Um, you know, I I would say of the three, my oldest, probably a little more stoic with me, because he kind of took on the same role that I did for his siblings as being the oldest, in the sense that, oh, I gotta protect mom, I gotta protect the family from dad was kind of wack-a-doo, and he was older to experience more of the pain that I shed on them. Again, something that I continue to work with, and I tell him I love him every day.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

See, your story's different. Your story's different than Hector and your mom's. Oh, definitely. So it yeah, and you one of the things I want to touch on before we move on and wrap here pretty soon, but you uh had to establish boundaries with your mom and Scarface, which you know is really to be commended.

Boundaries, Family, And Forgiveness Limits

SPEAKER_04 49:31

And I want to ask, you said earlier about forgiveness. Can you forgive? Because sometimes people talk about it as though forgiving someone automatically means that allowing them back into your life. And those are two completely different things. So is there forgiveness and has it come to what has it come to mean to you but with keeping them at a distance?

SPEAKER_01 49:56

I struggle. Will there be a day of forgiveness? I don't know. I struggle because I have kids. I struggle with what that man did to us physically and emotionally, and what my wife, excuse me, my mom allowed to happen. I struggle with that to this day because I have kids and I could never imagine ever beating not only my kids, but anyone like that. Um it was tortures what I experienced. I don't know, I know my boundaries that they can never be present in my life again. It can never be a relationship, that is for sure. Those are my boundaries. It will never be a relationship. Can I forgive and the book teaches us to God teaches us to just not there yet? If I'm gonna be honest with me, I'm just not there yet.

SPEAKER_04 50:52

Right. And and it's steps, it really is. It's uh all part of the process, and it's okay if it takes us a really long time to get there. And what happened to me was I forgive more on what happened to me than what happened to my siblings and the people around me. You know, that's a harder one for me to let go of, and I find that really interesting. But, you know, a lot of the things that I do, I do it because I dedicate it to my sister who went through so much. Why why did you decide to put your your story on paper?

Memoir, Foundation, And Paying It Forward

SPEAKER_01 51:27

It started off in 2009 after my brother died, and I was drinking heavily and seeing so many different therapists, uh, to the point that everyone kind of knew that I was just gaming the system until one person called me out on it. But that person also said, Why don't you put your thoughts down? You have such vivid thoughts. And I watched all of these thoughts on paper just grow into what this book came to be. And it went from sober, a drunk rich to sober rich. So you see the evolution in writing and so forth. And I always loved to write. And then I sat here reading it, it was cathodic, it but I was still ashamed. And then right around COVID is when I decided to uh what I consider courage to make a decision to put that out into the ether and share it because what I realized and learned all these years later that domestic violence on women and children and men is as prevalent today as it was back in the 70s and 80s. And that is so hurtful. And when are we going to evolve as human beings? And then the second component was this was not the end game for me. I have other books that are finished that will continue. Um I have a foundation called First Language Foundation.org. Yes, tell talk about that. Yeah, so that was the end game. It's a foundation designed to raise money from the public. You can go to first language foundation.org. And for me, for every book that I sell in perpetuity, one dollar will be donated to the foundation. We have a fabulous award. No one gets paid, so 100% is going to my five pillars, which is what I went through hunger, homelessness, violence, um, grooming. And uh, you know, those pay those these dollars will go to work for those specific teenagers, young adults that are struggling uh with these things. Oh, and I forgot addiction, of course. So that's the end game. I I would love to see that flourish in the short time that the foundation's been up. It's done okay. Um we've raised in four months about 11k, which I'm really happy about. And then my book and pre-sale has done really okay so far. Um, our worldwide release on all platforms, including audiobook. Silence was my first language will be out on October 6th. So hopefully, when people buy it, know that they're doing two things. A, they're gonna get a great read, it's a cinematic read, and really shed light on what's a real problem in America and in the world. And then secondly, that one dollar from that won't go towards this foundation.

SPEAKER_04 54:23

That's amazing. See, you're turn turning what we always say on the podcast, turning pain into purpose. And really, that is what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Um I hope we do great things with it, that's for sure. I really do.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

Well, you're helping other people. But before we close, I want to ask you one final question. We've talked yeah, we've talked about And I enjoyed this so much, by the way. Your your stor your story is so powerful to me. So I'm not kidding. I mean, I really did get chills, I cried, I it touched me, your grandfather's words changed me. You know, it it you know, it's more sometimes when you go to AA meetings, it's like a drunkalog. You know, they stand up there, they just tell their entire drunk story, and then they sit down. And it's like, okay, well, where's the purpose? You know, but there was so much purpose in your pain. And that's what I really appreciate with your book. But we've talked about your childhood, the people who helped you and the life that you built and the work that you're doing. And I want you to think about that little boy in the Bronx, the little boy who was trying to stay quiet so he wouldn't be hurt, and the little boy who wanted to protect his sister and his younger siblings, the little boy who kept showing up for school even when he didn't have a safe place to sleep. If you could sit down beside him on the step to sit down right next to him, what would you tell him?

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Wow. You know, I think that that's a great question, but I haven't been asked that, but I think I would tell him that none of this was your fault. That you are worthy of love, that one day you will have a family, a home, and a life filled with purpose. We talked about purpose. I think I would tell him to keep going. That the man you that you ultimately become will finally give you a voice in peace. You know, that that child survived long enough to live to tell his story. And uh I want to honor that boy. I think that's what I would tell.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

It's so beautiful. Yeah, you've come a long way, Rich.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Can't believe I'm here. I shouldn't be here when I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 56:48

Yeah, a a different kind of journey, a releasing like what your grandfather said and not taking it with you, you know, all of that. I mean, it it's been a real journey for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

It sure has, and I'm I'm grateful. You know, I look at my life now, I'm on the back nine, and every second has to count. Every second has to be paid forward to not only to honor my grandfather, but also to honor my father-in-law, who's just has been a father to me.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

Yeah, I'm gonna tell you that if I was him, I would have punched you. I he's kissing you on the forehead when you have done all of these things to his daughter and his grandkids, and he's loving, he tells you he loves you. He's my best friend.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

He's a godsend.

SPEAKER_04 57:38

Well, I guess it's good I wasn't in the family.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

I probably deserved the puncher, too.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

I don't know. I don't know. I would have punched myself sometimes. So there you go. One of the things that stands out to me about your journey is that you didn't simply leave the Bronx and everything that happened to you behind. You had to learn how to live differently. You had to recognize the behaviors that helped you survive as a child, but were no longer helping you as an adult. You had to confront the ways that you would hurt others, accept help along the way, and begin making different choices. And now you're using your voice to help others. I hope someone listening today who has spent years believing that their past determines their future will begin to recognize that there may be another way forward. Rich, thank you for sharing your journey with us.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Thank you, Anne, for this real talk. It was awesome. I love you. Thank you so much.

What He’d Tell The Boy

SPEAKER_04 58:38

And for our listeners, Rich's memoir, Silence Was My First Language, is scheduled for release on October 6th. And uh, you know, look at his foundation too, the uh first language foundation. So check it out and give and buy and uh help his mission. And so you're welcome. I'm so honored. Oh, and I am so honored to have you on. It's I'm just honored to meet you. And as we always say here on Real Talk with Tina and Ann, there is purpose in the pain, and there is hope in the journey. Thank you for joining us, and we will see you next time.