Neurodiversity in the Workplace: Building Better Workplaces for ALL Minds

Why “Fit” Is The Wrong Goal

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. I am Anne, and today we're talking about something that affects all of us. Whether you're an employee, an employer, or a parent preparing your neurodivergent child for the workforce for decades, we have measured success by how well people fit into systems that were not designed for them and were designed truly long before we even understood neurodiversity. Maybe we've been asking the wrong questions. Instead of asking, how do we help neurodivergent people fit into the workplace? What if we asked, how do we build workplaces where different minds can shine? This isn't just about understanding neurodiversity. It's about practical solutions. It's about what employers, educators, even, parents, co-workers can do to remove barriers, recognize strengths, and create environments where all minds are welcome. Joining us today are Jessica Lee, executive director and co-founder of NeuroTalentworks, a nonprofit connecting employers with neurodivergent talent, and Melody Valenzuela, president of Rapport Education Consulting, who helps organizations better understand and support neurodivergent employees. I met Jessica at the Slow Down Summit in Columbus, Ohio, a conference for neurodivergent leaders. After hearing her presentation, and we talked a little bit after, I knew that this was a conversation that we needed to bring to Real Talk with Tina and Anne. So Jessica and Melody, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, we're really excited to be here.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

As I prepared for today's interview, I reread your love letter to neurodivergent professionals. And I got teary. I mean, you wrote, What I most want you to know is that you matter. We see you and we care. We're so grateful that you're here just as you are, you know, and then you continue by describing the version of us, neurodivergent people that learn to mask, the one who rereads an email three times before hitting send, the one who rehearses small talk before walking into a meeting. Yes, I do that. And if I could have and if I could have somebody in my ear telling me what to say sometimes, that would be very helpful. And the one and the one who works twice as hard just to make it look effortless. Your presentation also made me think about my neurodivergent children because I have three. Our listeners and so many neurodivergent adults who've spent years wondering why it works so much more easily for everyone else. Your work challenges the idea that different means deficient. So take us back to

The Origin Of NeuroTalentWorks

SPEAKER_04 3:28

the beginning. How did Neurotalent Works begin? And what problems were you hoping to solve?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, thank you. Um when we started NeuroTalentWorks, um, my co-founders and I, Harag and Lisa, um, we Harog and I met because we were in the corporate world working together. And um, you know, their youngest son has um learning challenges. And as they were going to find um solutions and support for him, um, they went to a conference at UCLA and heard about the 80% unemployment rate of people with autism, and we're just so struck by such an astounding statistic. I mean, 80% is significantly high. Um, and this was 10 years ago in 2017. Um, and like a good consultant, Harag, and you know, in typical LA traffic, they're sitting in traffic talking about this. And um, as they were thinking about it, they were saying, gosh, like we're meeting these government agencies, their nonprofits and universities that are doing these job training programs and helping job candidates to get ready. But who's helping employers to understand how to embrace all of these types of minds? And um so our early the first year of us starting was really digging into what do employers know? And um, and actually the way that Harag and I came together, I was ready to make a transition towards a more meaningful career and move into social impact work. We just came together at the right time. Um, my cousin has Down syndrome that I grew up with. So I have a very special place in my heart for the community from our own lived experience, myself and our family. And yeah, and you know, having worked in the corporate world for um almost a decade at that point, I knew exactly the barriers that existed for people who think differently, who communicate differently, um, and that we would really have to spend a tremendous effort to change mindsets. Um, and my background's in change management. And we know that organizations don't change, people change one at a time. And so we'd have to do that in companies.

SPEAKER_04 6:05

You're you're both neurotypical, am I right? Ish. Go for a melody. Yeah. I say I say everybody has something.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Well, this is this is exactly the point. If we think about neurodiversity, less from the lens of the 80% is neurotypical and 15 to 20 is neurodivergent. Diversity doesn't mean either or. Diversity means everybody all the time, everywhere is different. So this is this is part of the work, is thinking about um, it's not are you in or out? It's not, I mean, I I I kind of do love to be considered a little bit neurodivergent. Um, I don't have any diagnoses, but man, as I've spent the last almost two decades understanding how minds work, I can identify so much um bits of me on the autistic spectrum, potentially, I don't know, definitely some scoops of ADHD in there, um, mental health challenges, absolutely. It all goes together. So I I think that's what's so beautiful about starting to facilitate these trainings and helping corporations think about their own minds. As Jessica said, it's just one person at a time. And if they can start to identify what it is about their own minds that think differently, they can think about others. So as if a neurodivergent person would probably label both of us neurotypical, yeah. Um, if I'm sitting in a neurotypical framework at some point, and there are psychologists, therapists about, they might identify some neurodivergence in one or both of us.

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Well, I was just thrilled that even if you were more on the neurotypical uh spectrum, that you wanted to do this. I I was just so thrilled because you know, I I don't know how many people actually do that. And you have built a whole organization helping neurodivergent people. So I was gonna say thank you.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

During your presentation, you did talk about whose normal are we protecting? And years ago, you know, I just want to tell this quickly. I was a director of a battered woman's shelter rape crisis center, and I loved my job, but I dreaded when I was asked to speak at the board meeting. You know, and it had nothing to do with my wanting to, and it had nothing to do with my care for the cause. It had everything to do with the fact that I was not able.

Building Workplaces With No “Normal”

SPEAKER_04 9:32

So, what conversations should employers and educators and leaders be having so there is no one normal?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Uh I can start and then Melody, please add on. Um we could go on about this. I think a couple of things. First, um, what you were mentioning about, you know, your neurotypical and having started the organization. It's interesting because to be honest, that was actually one of my imposter syndrome um thoughts I had in the very beginning for myself just personally. Um, but the more I thought about it, the more I was like, I'm the right person to leave this because I am exactly who I'm trying to reach. People who neurotypical people who made it through the schooling system because they could learn in a way that the system was built for. Um, went to college, successfully interviewed for my first job, got into the consulting world in the corporate world, where you are, we'll talk about masking because we all mask in some way. But I was able to do that. And then I'm in the corporate structure, and I'm seeing exactly who's getting rewarded in performance, um, who's being acknowledged for their strengths. And and when I learned about all of this work and entered in, it was just so overwhelming in change. I mean, I was sitting in conferences, bawling, crying, hearing autistic people share their stories and being like, wow, I know nothing. I I I had no idea these are what my peers and others have struggled with. And I have to do something about it now. I have an opportunity to. I see what is necessary for it. And this is long change. This is not something that just happens overnight. Um, and so that's I just want to call that out too, and just how important it is for anyone listening that is working at a company or who is neurotypical, that we really have um something to remove that burden from the neurodivergent like community too, is so powerful. I can have the conversations in a way um that is not gonna harm me in the same way that if I were neurodivergent, having to fight some of these barriers that we face. Um, and so I just want to say that in an encouraging way, not to like pump my ego or anything, but just that we need people speaking up and representing all of us. Um, and then it's just came.

SPEAKER_03 12:34

I it I it's such a beautiful point. It's the same, if you can imagine. So we need a neurotypical person speaking up for neurodivergent, the same way we need men speaking up for women's issues, the same way we need privileged folks speaking up for underprivileged, any way that we divide ourselves, um, for the side who is holding the power to take a moment and say this small, more this marginalized group matters, has gifts, has talents, is an integral part of society, is worthy of our time and our attention, is worthy of all of our efforts. Um, so that's what we're trying to do in this space as the people who write, figured out the school system. It worked, figured out those interviews without without problem. To your original point and what you said in your own example, you discovered that this was it's not a won't. It's not a I don't want to, so I won't. It's a can't. I can't. There's I'm limited in some capacity, and it's not for lack of caring or desire. There's a there's a limitation that is unseen that needs to be spoken to.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

You mentioned about barriers and how do organizations actually remove barriers instead of expecting the person to change.

Three Shifts Employers Can Make

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah. At the slowdown summit, as I was presenting um the three areas that we really believe um need to shift, what would it look like to redesign? Um, first is neurodiversity education. There is still such a misunderstanding. I think neurodivergent individuals are one of the most overlooked, misunderstood communities. And so education is critical. We need to democratize knowledge and understanding of what it actually means to have cognitive diversity and what it means that my mind works in a particular way and someone else works in another way. So, our training that we do with companies is exactly that it's understanding all minds and every mind. And I start with understanding my mind first. So then I can start to understand how someone else's might be similar or different to me. Um, and so what from that, we need behavior changes. Um, I think a margin between judgments. We see someone's behaviors and we're like, that's odd or that's different from what I'm familiar with. And we have lots of words we use to describe other people, and we make judgments. And we really are in our training and the coaching Melody does with leaders. It's a lot about how do we build that margin between judgment and observing what's happening, and then our reaction to it. That's critical. And then these structural shifts, how we conduct interviews, so many policies and processes internally in talent acquisition at companies, how we um yeah, how we do interviews, that is the biggest barrier, I would say, for employment. And then performance management. How are we valuing our employees and how we define high performance and effectiveness as teams? So lots of shifts, meeting norms, all the things. Melody, anything you want to add there too or the barriers that we see?

SPEAKER_03 16:22

No, well, actually, what I was thinking about is as we consider human growth and learning one of the key ways, because we want your listeners to be able to leave with actually something needy that they can just grab practically and go and do. So some of our any listeners who who might be neurodivergent, um, or just maybe they're not auditory processors and they're listening to a show or watching a show, and how do they take it away? How do they leave with some quality information? So actually, I was gonna ask you, Jess, if you would just go back through those three bullet points. If the question is, how do we move change forward? Give us succinct bullet points. Yeah, those three, two or three.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yes, I know. Thank you for thinking about it. Um first bring neurodiversity education to your company, to your team, and talk about how our minds work. Second, build margin between judgment of what you're observing in someone else's behavior and your reaction. Instead of that's weird, it's oh, I'm noticing that they're fidgeting with their hands, right? Just a simple shift of observing what's human. And then third, in companies, make structural shifts in your interview processes, in your performance management, and how people and teams interact with each other on a daily basis. Consider a different way that could bring in more minds, more people.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

We are going to talk about every little bit from the hiring all the way through. But I I think that most employers genuinely want to create a more inclusive workplace. The challenge is knowing where to

Interview Bias And Missed Talent

SPEAKER_04 18:20

begin. So when you first get that call or you walk into an organization, what are the biggest misconceptions about neurodivergent employees? Oh, where to begin here?

SPEAKER_03 18:31

I mean, there's so much masking that goes on initially, they probably don't even aren't able to note necessarily that they're speaking with a neurodivergent person who's looking to be hired.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

I think one of the misunderstandings, there's so many. Let's talk about the interview for a minute. Okay. Often the misunderstandings I see. I so when we do interview training for a lot of the companies we work with, the reaction I get, or the interview our candidates, we do mock interviews too, is oh my gosh, we have overlooked so many people because I didn't know these things. For example, making eye contact. We think someone's not making eye contact with me, they must not be paying attention, they must not care about what I'm talking about. When in actuality, no, looking at someone in the eye and staring at them can feel there's a there can be an information processing or a sensory overload that's happening. When I'm thinking deeply, I need to look out the window and I need to look beyond what's in front of me to think about something deeply. So if I'm in an interview, I'm probably looking out too. And we need to not allow that behavior to be an automatic response of they're not paying attention. It just quickly shifts then how they think about the person in front of them. That's a big one. Eye contact, tone of voice, the pace at which people talk, physical space, body language. Yes, the time it takes to respond to a question asked.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Um literal responses versus abstract reasoning.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

And we start to think this person either isn't present, doesn't care, doesn't know what I'm talking about, doesn't understand the question, doesn't have um a thorough enough response, and immediately that's that judgment piece that we're talking about. Instead of curiosity, what is happening here? What are these differences that I'm noting? What do these mean? Where are they coming from? We just jump to judgment. And instead of looking at the skill that is being represented, wow, if we could consider, gosh, they really did have a great answer to my question and set set to the side things like eye contact, body language, how long it takes them to respond, or the language they're that they're using. But consider did they get to your question? Maybe they are qualified for the job because they had a great answer.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

They just don't present in a way you were used to seeing it.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Exactly. How can organizations redesign interviews then so that they're discovering people's strengths instead of simply rewarding the strongest inner interviewer?

Skills-Based Interviews That Reveal Strengths

SPEAKER_04 21:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yes, and exactly that. Right. The people who get chosen for a job today are the people who can verbally communicate in the strongest way to persuade you that they're the best candidate for the job. I just want to double click on what you just said, Ann. Um the biggest thing we advocate for with companies are skills based interviews. For almost every job that they're Is even for sales and marketing, um there you want to see the skills someone is bringing to that job. So what we do with companies is design skills-based interviews, like for an accounting job, um, a bank reconciliation activity, and an Excel sheet activity. And when we do that, we start with that. So many of our candidates and our interviewers are blown away. They're like, oh my gosh, this was the fastest and accurate, double-checked their work. Um, and they thrive in that. And then when we go into the verbal interview, they're that much better because they're like, I just nailed that. I'm confident. Now, when I do the verbal interview, I'm performing better. Um, and what managers tell us is like, yeah, I would never have known this part of any of our other candidates had we not done a skills-based interview. So that is critical because the non-visible part of neurodivergence and the strengths and gifts of it, you cannot see in just a verbal interview exchange.

Executive Functioning At Work

SPEAKER_04 23:12

I want to talk about uh executive functioning because that affects so much of the work. I mean I don't think that, you know, and that's part of the interviewing process. It's part of everything when you're neurodivergent. And I just don't think people really realize everything that it affects at the workplace. You know, we're talking about things like organization, working memory, planning, task management, time management, flexibility, emotional regulation, managing manning uh managing stress. So, I mean, for someone who's never heard that term, how will how much does executive functioning actually affect and look like? What does it look like in the workplace?

SPEAKER_03 24:04

It's everything. Executive functioning is everything. I love how well you enumerated the aspects of uh executive functioning and included what we call the base of our pyramid as we teach this. The emotional regulation, the stress tolerance, um, the abilities to sustain attention. Because this is okay, I'll just do a super brief overview. This is all a pre-frontal cortex zone. Executive functioning is the part of your brain that directs the rest of your brain. It directs your limbic system, it directs your nervous system. Um, so if you're offline in your executive functions, then you are not able to operate. So some of the typically we think about executive functioning as the ability to plan, prioritize, organize, or what identify you look at someone's desk in the morning and it's chaotic and things are everywhere, and you think immediately, oh, executive functioning issues. Um, that's like a typical understanding. But what you're mentioning about the emotional regulation is so critical and because you are not going to be able to move through attention, focus and sustain your attention on what is happening if you are um if your kind of threshold for stress has already been um overwhelmed. So so once those uh kind of higher thinking abilities are offline, which for our neurodivergent individuals, you know, stress management is is just naturally different. Um also because if we will get into masking, but just to say um if they have sensory sensitivities and they are in their information processing zones, actively and passively, are dealing with digesting every everything around them that they're picking up, that affects their capacity to manage stress efficiently and to remain emotionally regulated. Then it affects their attention. And above that, now the ability, especially working memory, to hold several things in mind at once, um, like I'm doing as I'm talking now. I'm clocking that one of my earbuds is a little bit loose. I'm paying attention to how much I'm moving my hands or saying um, or am I looking at the camera as I'm thinking? Am I doing the eye contact? And I'm thinking about the thing that I'm sharing and speaking about. So you're going to see your working memory and your organization now are not accept uh accessible to you. That's going to impact your work in in a number of ways, all the ways.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Yeah. Yeah. I want to add to that an example that we use in our training of exactly what Melody was describing as those impacts. It's just the same as, and so much of our training is we want to have everybody be able to relate to the content and understand these parts of our minds. Um, it's like if we were in a meeting together and you look down at your phone and you have a missed call from the doctor's office or a missed call from your child's school. Immediately, that base of the pyramid, the emotional regulation, your stress tolerance, your response inhibition, you're triggered. You're like, I don't know what this is about. Kind of a little panic, right? A little anxiety. Um, and then the first thing that's affected is the attention. So now while I'm in the meeting, I'm not going to be able to pay attention as well. And then I'm not going to remember the working memory melody saying of like, what were the key takeaways that I needed to do? Um, who's doing what? And especially in meetings where everyone's talking all at once. And like, what are we doing? The clarity there. And so for the executive functions in the workplace, these are so what, so what could you do? What's important then? In team meetings, if you have a shared note taker, this is going to be, or AI, this is going to be so helpful and critical for neurodivergent team members who you know or don't know are neurodivergent because it's not visible. And it's going to be helpful for anybody when they're in when they've got a stressful situation happening in their lives or at home. Um, so these are not like big shifts that we need to make. These are small um everyday things that we can that we can shift in our workplace and what we do.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

Yeah, I mean, they're not really, you're not really asking huge accommodations.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

No.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

No. Um, I thought maybe I could share something personal about the slowdown summit because uh I carry with me what I call external brains everywhere I go, and they help me with my executive functioning. Now, when I first arrived, I, you know, you walked in, and I know that they did everything that they could to make it super easy for everybody who is neurodivergent. But when I first walked in, I was already done. My brain had already shut off, and so there was a table, and they're just saying, you need to do this, this, and this. I didn't hear one thing that they told me I needed to do. So my friend and my son, who's also on the spectrum, and he walked in with that. They stood over in the corner watching to make sure I had it. I I didn't have it. So my friend, who is an external brain for me, he she came over and she's like, Okay, this is what you need to do first, second, next, you know, you need to grab a sticker, you need to write on it, you need to do, you know, all the things. So she helped me do that. And so then I'm done with that, and I go off to the side, and I still wasn't settled and I didn't know what to do next. Well, one of the team members who was in charge, Zach, noticed that I was having a difficult time. The first thing I did, he's like, you know, how can I help? Oh no, I'm fine. I'm fine, I'm fine. I got it. No, really, I I can handle it on my own. He's like, no, let me take um a picture of the two, because I explained about my external brains and how they were helping me. And he's like, Well, you know what? Let's just all be your external brain. I'm gonna take a picture of the two of us, and we and I'm gonna send it to all the team members, and we're just gonna be your external brain. And I'm like, no, thank you. No, no, that I really don't want my picture out there to everybody, making it look like I'm the most neurodivergent person here. No, I really don't want that. So then, um, but then people started coming up to me, hi Ann. Hi, Ann. And I went, oh, he did it. But the point of that was, you know, it it really did help me and it outsettled me. So then I was able, my my executive functioning piece was able to start assimilating, start connecting, all the synapses were starting to settle, or whatever you want to say. And then I was able to have a really great day. So, you know, I really, you know, learning about executive functioning helped me realize those supports aren't weaknesses, that they're simply tools that I need for me to be my best. So it's definitely tool. Yeah, for someone listening who's thinking that's me, you know, can you explain why external supports aren't shortcuts or weaknesses? But it's it's actually helping peach people reach their full potential.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

This is what we think about in the educational space all the time, because some of my neurodivergent adolescents that I've I've helped and I've helped families think about what are the supports that are absolutely necessary. Um, we call them um accommodations or modifications in the educational space. And the kids will sometimes feel like this must be cheating. And I'm like, if you are in a wheelchair at the bottom of the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, is it cheating to have a ramp to use? No, absolutely, that's actually the smartest way to do it. That actually just makes sense. Wheels and ramps go together. Let's do it that way. Right. So and then we think about this in the workplace. As you as you said, these are not gigantic accommodations. Um they are reasonable, and the legal language around it is just reasonable accommodations that do not create a hardship for the company or the employer that allow someone to do essential job functions, just you know, the basics of the job. They need a note taker, they need AI on so they can look at the recording later. These are not gigantic changes. And if I could make one more point about your experience in them in a large setting, yeah, that would be super uncomfortable to have a picture of you sent out and just labeled and focused. This is Melody's the one that needs help, needs help. Everyone focus on Melody. Melody needs the most help. Everyone do cater to Melody. Like that would feel so weird. So instead, if we could say there's no need for someone to identify neurodivergence, really, what is needed instead is universal design. What we need is since we know we don't know who the 20% are, but we know that a hundred percent of the people around me have a different brain than the one I have. So let's assume competence, but let's present information in in a multimodal way, so that someone who needs the extra guidance just has it. It's visually accessible. There are explanations, there are guides, there are arrows on the floor. Um, just so that's accessible to anybody. And then guess what? No one needs to show up and say, Hey, I'm the one who needs the extra help.

SPEAKER_04 35:17

Yeah, and I know he meant well.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

I am no I think of it as like, yeah, a concierge service and knowing Zach's heart and the heart for these. It was it was like the concierge service of like when you walk into the hotel and they're like, Hi, Mrs. Lee. I'm like, oh, thank you. Hi. Well they know me.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Yeah, and it was just, I think that I've worked so and we'll we will talk about masking, but I think that we work so hard um as neurodivergent individuals out there in the world, trying to not be seen, yeah, you know, trying to blend. And it's just so important. And yeah, I know that he was really trying to help me, and I very much appreciated it because his little bit off to the side, and he would just stay off to the side and let me know. He was kind of there. Every room I was in, I would just kind of look over and he was like, Yeah, I got you. You know, it was it was great, and I I eventually I was absolutely fine. But one I one idea from your presentation, Jessica, was reducing cognitive load instead of increasing pressure. And I I didn't feel the pressure, but I did feel the cognitive load. And once someone misses a deadline or forgets a task or struggles to switch between projects or maybe misunderstands instructions, it's easy to assume that they simply aren't trying hard enough. But sometimes the real issue really it has nothing to do with momentum, as we've been touching on. Can you explain what cognitive load is and why it's often misunderstood and what employers can do instead of simply adding more pressure?

Cognitive Load And Simple Fixes

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah. Well, this is why I brought Melody, why we do these podcasts together, because she taught me about cognitive load and this key. So I'm gonna lend to Melody first and then I'll add to that. Oh, sure.

SPEAKER_03 37:17

Cognitive load, it just how much are you carrying on your brain plate at any given time? And uh, we talked a little bit about sensory sensitivities, but all of us are minimally passively processing the world around us. How bright is it? How comfortable is my chair? How loud is the speaker? What is the energy in the room, especially for high, highly empathetic people? Um, I can hardly walk in a room with someone if someone's a little bit upset. I will just all my focus goes there, and now I'm just a little more depleted. You think about um one of the I work with a developmental optometrist who uses this example of a dollar's worth of dimes. You got 10 dimes, you're gonna have to spend them somewhere. And if you're sensory sensitive, there goes a dime. If you're an auditory processor and it's extra loud around you, there goes a dime. If you're an empath, there goes a dime. You know, if you didn't bring your glasses that day, there goes a dime. So all of a sudden you're not banging on all cylinders, you're compromised. And so that is the load, the cognitive load that you are carrying is everything that you are having to do just to be able to be present. Now, if we add pressure or someone's upset with us, now if we order add an actual cognitive task that uses our working memory, you know, so we're not coming in a hundred percent. Everything that you are affected by, affected by is creating that load. So the automatic answer for so much of the executive functioning issues is reducing that load. What and you're doing it with your external brains. Um I'm an auditory processor. How do I reduce cognitive load? Put on some headphones, some noise canceling headphones. Um, my working memory isn't online. How do I reduce cognitive load? Put it in a recording in your phone, have someone joting down notes for you. Um I'm I'm a sensitive person. How do I reduce cognitive load? Wear my sunglasses, put the blind blinds down. Um, so anything that you can take off your brain plate. Um, and this is what I I work with with even some young young career age adults. Um they're so so ready to try to prove themselves. I don't, I don't have to take notes, I got that all in my brain. Um you don't, you don't got it in your brain. And even if you do, just reduce cognitive load anyway. Hey, free up that brain space. Take a take the note, jot it down. Um, but they're just so ready to be seen as less capable. And so some of these best tools are just hard to utilize. So reducing cognitive load just means anything I can do to take the weight off my brain so I have more space to process and be present, that's a win.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

Talking about cognitive overload, you know, so often neurodivergent adults don't realize that we are experiencing that when it is even happening. And some of these things that you are kind of putting in place for employers, I really appreciate. And you do give a perspective that offers validation to anyone that has experienced this, which I really appreciate, because you know, I don't even think that I realized that I didn't even see it this way. I I really do think that I had to fake it and mask and be like everybody else in the room. So I really appreciate what you're doing. Yeah, that that brings us to something that seems so incredibly small, but these are enormous, really. It's all about certain things and the way that they are presented. And one example from your presentation made me laugh because I've done this so many times. You know, you get that message. Can we talk? My favorite too. Instantly, I mean, I think everybody does this, but instantly your brain starts filling in the brand blanks, you know. Okay, what did I do wrong? Am I in trouble? You know, it doesn't go to the, oh, we're gonna go to lunch and we're gonna, it doesn't go to the really positive stuff. It goes instantly to what did I do? You know, and your suggestion was so simple. Tell people why you want to meet, send an agenda, reduce uncertainty. So, how do these small changes like that have such a big impact?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yes. Well, it's exactly I think what we were talking about earlier: your executive functions and your cognitive load. All the pennies Melody was talking about of what's being spent, like in the interview, having a copy of the interview questions in front of you is going to help me perform better in the interview. Because for any of us, when we're nervous and I'm hearing someone ask me a question, I'm like, oh my gosh, what did they say again? I'm already nervous. I'm in an in an interview.

unknown 42:50

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

How much help, how much easier and more helpful would it be if I had that to read on the screen, whether it's dropped in the chat to me or I have a copy printed in front of me. And as an interviewer, you should know the questions you're gonna ask your interviewees. Um something as simple as that is reducing cognitive load and allowing your interviewer interviewee to perform better in the interview. It's just, it's that base of the pyramid again. We're regulating because that's when you have your best performance from any of your employees and team members. Um these are those small shifts that can just make such a difference for everybody, um, but especially for neurodivergent people. And I do want to go back to something you said earlier where real talk, we're on real talk here on the podcast. Um real talk is yeah, there, I think a lot of neurotypical people think just try harder. Yeah, you should be able to do this.

unknown 43:59

And

SPEAKER_01 44:00

And that's a lot of what Melody and I talk about because I'm like, how do we move people past that? My mind cannot perform this function the way that yours does. And so that's where one of our key concepts of like someone else's mind is not my own. I've got to get to that place first. So then I can start to say, oh, there are these best universal design practices like interview questions presented to me. Note-taking that is shared for all of us, ping with purpose, tell me why we're getting on a call or the agenda so I can come prepared and have the best conversation. It's just understanding these parts of our minds. And I didn't know any of this. It's completely changed me as a person, as a manager. Um, but people don't know what they've not been exposed to. And that's why this is so important. So we get to bring this to more people.

SPEAKER_04 45:02

One of my favorite parts of your slideshow was when you had it, you had up there about like how do you communicate best? How do you receive information best? How do you learn best? You know, I mean, those are such great questions. And they really create the accommodations already in play, you know, put them in place. And there are practical ways to help people succeed.

Energy Cost Audits And Better One-On-Ones

SPEAKER_04 45:33

So I'm going to put the slides up um on for TV and and uh YouTube, but could you share some of the accommodations from that slide? And you know, they really put a visual for me and why they're often beneficial for everyone, not just neurodivergent employees.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

For anyone who's listening of what this is, um, we have a worksheet and we call it the energy cost audit. How much energy is it taking for my brain to do some of these things? And why is it a high, medium, low cost to my brain? And what flexibility or support would unlock better work for me? Um so, for example, let's see, I'm gonna choose one from this list here. Um, one-on-one meetings with my manager, high, medium, low cost. I hear from so many neurodivergent professionals, this is a high energy cost meeting I'm preparing for every week because I have 30 minutes to have a conversation with my manager. And for some people, this is so key for leaders. Leaders have the ability to either co-regulate or co-disregulate their team and their people. And um, I at the slowdown summit, I had spoken to a few neurodivergent professionals who just said, when I meet with my manager, I feel their stress and their panic. And that automatically sends me to stress and panic. Okay. So, what do I need from my manager to come into those meetings to have a better conversation? Um, having an agenda and knowing what we're gonna talk about in that meeting. So, for my team, what we do is in the meeting invite, we have the topics that we're gonna talk about together. And we start the meeting every time. And I say, Hey, here's what's on my mind to talk about today. What's on your mind to talk about today? We have this shared list in the chat. These are all the topics we want to talk about today. And um that just having that written down, knowing what we're going to talk about, that is already something supportive. That is not have to be a formal accommodation that I need to go through the corporate process to ask for.

SPEAKER_03 48:16

Can we say why that matters so much cognitively? Yes, please. Because it's a great tool, but then sometimes our leaders are listening, going, yeah, of course, that's fine. That's something I can do. Easy, whatever. I always do that. No, you don't. No, you don't. You don't. These these tools sound so simple, and but it's the using of them that makes the actual difference. And you might use it for a first the first couple of weeks after you've heard Jessica mention it, and then it just drops off because you really haven't understood the purpose behind it. So I just want to highlight two reasons why that's critical. Number one, if we talk about reducing cognitive load and someone's executive functions that might be compromised, you are providing the structure for them so they don't have to create the structure. It's not just about being prepared, it's that external, it's the scaffold. This is created for you. Now we I have reduced cognitive load out as your manager, which means my employee can come better prepared, more regulated, and can give me the meat that I want to hear during the meeting. Secondly, the way that Jessica began the conversation, here's what's on my mind, what's on your mind? Okay, so she's listening to me. She cares about what I have to say, she cares about my thoughts. That's emotionally regulating because I'm valued, I'm seen as um an important piece of the conversation. What's on my mind matters, so that's emotionally regulating because psychologically it's safe now. We are on equal footing. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

And I could keep going with this example because yeah, go ahead. I you know, I think what's coming to mind, it's this is really helpful because it's helping me self-reflect too all the time of like, what is the knowledge I know that's changed my behavior that made me decide to change the way I manage and lead? Um and I think it's this it's like when I am thoughtful, to I I'm thinking about what does my team need to be successful to get their work done. And now I know oh, people really benefit when they have that scaffolding, that structure, when they know what's expected of them. Like if I'm giving a task and saying in my one-on-one manager meeting, and I'm saying, you know, put a dashboard together that shows us, for example, for in the nonprofit space, we've we've built a dashboard for the foundations we apply for grants to. So if I tell my team member, can you build a dashboard that shows us all the foundations we've applied to? Um, what we get, what we don't get, that would be great. And my team member's like, great, let me go run with that. And then they come back and I see it, and I'm like, oh, that's not what I had in mind at all. And now I'm like, gosh, now I have to give feedback. What's better? What I've learned. Instead, let's make it really explicit and clear. Here are is exactly what I want this dashboard to show us. I want it to um give us insight into who I want to know where the foundation's located. I want to know who they give to. These are all the dimensions I want in this dashboard. Let me just give you the whole list. So you're not left guessing what's considered a really good work product. Like let me tell you explicitly exactly what I want in it, exactly what's gonna be a great work product or a great outcome of this project. Being concrete, specific, direct, that's what's gonna help my team.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

And it doesn't just help that one individual that you're thinking, Melody's neurodivergent, she needs this. That's should be just helpful for the whole team.

Disclosure Safety And Team Fairness

SPEAKER_03 52:32

It's more, it's more efficient. We're leaving at 4:30, not five now, because I did it right the first time because I knew exactly what my manager was asking of me.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Yeah, but but and then that this is the critical part for neurodivergent professionals and people, especially, and leaders. If you are coming, if you are talking, it is the amount uh what it takes for a neurodivergent individual to decide and feel safe to disclose to their manager. I want to talk about this because yeah, they're the people who can mask and can get by in the corporate workplace and are probably struggling to, but are choosing not to disclose because of the risk they're that they're gonna take. Then you've got neurodivergent professionals who are struggling, who cannot mask, and who are like, I need these supports, like this whole table we have of what's costing me energy in my brain. One, we need to make it safe for people to Melody does so much in her coaching on shame removal, so much we could talk about there. Um, because you've got to be able to advocate for what you need. This is just what my brain needs. And then for a manager to hear that and receive it and say, okay, their mind works in this particular way. What am I as a manager going to do? Can I do to then support them? There has to be a desire for that.

SPEAKER_04 54:06

I actually was going to ask about safety, about stepping away to be able to regulate, be able to express and share what they need to, uh, without coworkers actually even seeing it as unfair. Uh, you know, I mean, because I'm sure that there is that going on too, where it can exist between the problem can exist between a neurodivergent and their co-their neurotypical coworker. And that could be a whole nother level. And you know, what what does that look like when you want them to support, and maybe some really do want to support, and how do they support? And where does the unfairness, where is that removed?

SPEAKER_03 54:53

You want to take it? Go for it. This is this is a a really difficult balance to to achieve. Um, yeah. I think what is I'll speak to what might work a little bit later, but I think the foundation is to understand, especially in our work where we're coaching maybe a manager employee team of two. What matters is um yes, we want to make the accommodations that are reasonable for the neurodiverse individual, but businesses are not going to do that if it uh creates a hardship. And that makes sense. Um they need to run as a business smoothly, efficiently, and productively, and and be able to expend an appropriate amount of resources for one individual at a time. Right.

SPEAKER_04 55:51

But and and that makes sense. And I'm just talking about when uh the accommodations are they're they're fine. I mean, they're what anybody would ask for. I mean, they they should get those accommodations, but another coworker might feel as if and create a feeling of shame or a feeling of not really the person not really wanting to share that they are having difficulties because you know, like you said, curiosity over judgment. Why is this person needing to step out of the meeting for five minutes? You know, that's not okay. Why is, you know, and they are accommodations that make sense, but there could be people that are judging before asking.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

Yeah, I think I think the reasonable conversation for any any manager to to encourage is is to open it uh to everyone. Each of you think about what do you need to work in your best in the best way. Um we talk about truth statements a lot in our trainings. Uh the you know, just calling out some of those elephants in the room, um, not to draw specific attention to anyone, but just to address maybe up the beginning of the meeting, hey, this is going to be a dense conversation for an hour and a half. If you need to stand in the back of the room to move your body, if you need to take a break in the middle when I haven't necessarily, you know, called for a break, um, please think about what it is you need to show up with the mind you've got and the body you've got and and the challenges and pressures at home that you're bringing today. Um, think about what it is you need, just so there's freedom for everyone to choose. Now I can sit there and decide for myself. And you see someone taking a break, and okay, manager already called for that. Everything's fine.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

Yeah.

Universal Norms Like Video-Off Meetings

SPEAKER_01 57:54

And another example to build on that is for virtual teams, video off meetings or time. It when I I consciously now, as a leader, will sometimes have meetings. And I know this about my brain now too. Towards the end of the day, I'm exhausted. So is my team. If we're getting on a call, we'll say, I'll say, like, hey, I'll I my brain is so tired right now. Can we do a video off meeting? Um, we can just all be video off. It's just what I'm needing right now. And by me modeling that as the leader, I'm indicating to my team it's safe for you to advocate for what you need. And I'm mindful of what's best for all of us. Um, and so sometimes we'll do video off meetings. And if my employee comes to me one day and is like, hey, this is going on, it really helped me to have my video off. I'm gonna say, yeah, of course.