Building Workplaces for Every Brain: And a Love Letter from a Neurotypical to Neurodivergent Leaders

Leaders Shape Team Regulation

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Leaders have the ability to either co-regulate or co-disregulate their team and their people. I at the slowdown summit, I had spoken to a few neurodivergent professionals who just said, when I meet with my manager, I feel their stress and their panic. And that automatically sends me to stress and panic. Okay. And so that's so what do I need from my manager to come into those meetings to have a better conversation? Um having an agenda and knowing what we're going to talk about in that meeting. So for my team, what we do is in the meeting invite, we have the topics that we're going to talk about together. And we start the meeting every time. And I say, hey, here's what's on my mind to talk about today. What's on your mind to talk about today? And we have this shared list in the chat. These are all the topics we want to talk about today. And um that just having that

Agendas That Lower Cognitive Load

SPEAKER_02 1:25

written down, knowing what we're going to talk about, that is already something supportive. That is not have to be a formal accommodation that I need to go through the corporate process to ask for.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Could we say why that matters so much cognitively? Yes, please. Because it's a great tool, but then sometimes our leaders are listening, going, Yeah, of course, that's fine. That's something I can do. Easy, whatever. I always do that. No, you don't. No, you don't. You don't. These these tools sound so simple, and but it's the using of them that makes the actual difference. And you might use it for a first the first couple of weeks after you've heard Jessica mention it, and then it just drops off because you really haven't understood the purpose behind it. So I just want to highlight two reasons why that's critical. Number one, if we talk about reducing cognitive load and someone's executive functions that might be compromised, you are providing the structure for them so they don't have to create the structure. It's not just about being prepared, it's that extir, it's the scaffold. This is created for you. Now we I have reduced cognitive load out as your manager, which means my employee can come better prepared, more regulated, and can give me the meat that I want to hear during the meeting. Secondly, the way that Jessica began the conversation, here's what's on my mind, what's on your mind. Okay, so she's listening to me. She cares about what I have to say, she cares about my thoughts, that's emotionally regulating because I'm valued, I'm seen as um an important piece of the conversation. What's on my mind matters, so that's emotionally regulating because psychologically it's safe now. We're on equal footing. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

And I could keep going with this example because yeah, go ahead. I you know, I think what's coming to mind, it's this is really helpful because it's helping me self-reflect too all the time of like, what is the knowledge I know that's changed my behavior that made me decide to change the way I manage and lead. Um and I think it's this it's like when I am thoughtful, to I I'm thinking about what does my team need to be successful to get their work done. And now I know oh, people really benefit when they have that scaffolding, that structure, when they know what's expected of them. Like if I'm giving a task and saying in my one-on-one manager meeting, and I'm saying, you know, put a dashboard together that shows us, for example, for in the nonprofit space, we we've built a dashboard for the foundations we apply for grants to. So if I tell my team member, can you build a dashboard that shows us all the foundations we've applied to, um, what we get, what we don't get, that would be great. And my team member's like, great, let me go run with that. And then they come back and I see it, and I'm like, oh, that's not what I had in mind at all. And now I'm like, gosh, now I have to give feedback. What's

Clear Specs Prevent Feedback Spirals

SPEAKER_02 4:55

better? What I've learned. Instead, let's make it really explicit and clear. Here are is exactly what I want this dashboard to show us. I want it to um give us insight into, you know, who I want to know where the foundation's located. I want to know who they give to. These are all the dimensions I want in this dashboard. Let me just give you the whole list. So you're not left guessing what's considered a really good work product. Like let me tell you explicitly exactly what I want in it, exactly what's gonna be a great work product or a great outcome of this project. Being concrete, specific, direct, that's what's gonna help my team.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

And it doesn't just help that one individual that you're thinking, Melody's neurodivergent, she needs this. That's should be just helpful for the whole team. It's more, it's more efficient. We're leaving at 4 30, not five now, because I did it right the first time because I knew exactly what my manager was asking of me.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah, but but and then this is the critical part for neurodivergent professionals

Making Disclosure Feel Safe

SPEAKER_02 6:10

and people, especially and leaders. If you are coming, if you are talking, it is the amount of what it takes for a neurodivergent individual to decide and feel safe to disclose to their manager. I want to talk about this because they're the people who can mask and can get by in the corporate workplace and are probably struggling too, but are choosing not to disclose because of the risk they're that they're gonna take. Then you've got neurodivergent professionals who are struggling, who cannot mask, and who are like, I need these supports, like this whole table we have of what's costing me energy in my brain. One, we need to make it safe for people to Melody does so much in our coaching on shame removal, so much we could talk about there. Um, because you've got to be able to advocate for what you need. This is just what my brain needs. And then for a manager to hear that and receive it and say, okay, their mind works in this particular way. What am I as a manager going to do? Can I do to then support them? There has to be a desire for that.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

I actually was going to ask about safety, about stepping away to be able to regulate, be able to express and share what they need to, uh, without coworkers actually even seeing it as unfair. Uh, you know, I mean, because I'm sure that there is that going on too, where it can exist between the problem can exist between a neurodivergent and their co-their neurotypical coworker. And that could be a whole nother level. And you know, what what does that look like when you want them to support, and maybe some really do want to support, and how do they support? And where does the unfairness, where is that removed? This is a a really difficult balance to to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Um, yeah, I think what is I'll speak to what might work a little bit later, but I think the foundation is to understand, especially in our work where we're coaching maybe a manager employee team of two. What matters is um yes, we want to make the accommodations that are reasonable for the neurodiverse individual, but businesses are not going to do that if it uh be creates a hardship. And that makes sense. Um they need to run as a business smoothly, efficiently, and productively, and and be able to expend an appropriate amount of resources for one individual at a time.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Right. But and and that makes sense. And I'm just talking about when uh the accommodations are they're they're fine. I mean, they're what anybody would ask for. I mean, they they should get those accommodations, but another coworker might feel as if and create a feeling of shame or a feeling of not really the person not really wanting to share that they are having difficulties because you know, like you said, curiosity over judgment. Why is this person needing to step out of the meeting for five minutes? You know, that's not okay. Why is, you know, and they are accommodations that make sense, but there could be people that are judging before asking.

Fairness Through Universal Team Norms

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, I think I think the reasonable conversation for any any manager to to encourage is is to open it uh to everyone. Each of you think about what do you need to work in your best in the best way. Um we talk about truth statements a lot in our trainings. Um, you know, just calling out some of those elephants in the room, um, not to draw specific attention to anyone, but just to address maybe up the beginning of the meeting, hey, this is going to be a dense conversation for an hour and a half. If you need to stand in the back of the room to move your body, if you need to take a break in the middle when I haven't necessarily, you know, called for a break, um, please think about what it is you need to show up with the mind you've got and the body you've got and and the challenges and pressures at home that you're bringing today. Um, think about what it is you need, just so there's freedom for everyone to choose. Now I can sit there and decide for myself. And you see someone taking a break, and okay, manager already called for that. Everything's fine.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Yeah. Another example to build on that is for virtual teams, video off meetings or time. It when I I consciously now, as a leader, will sometimes have meetings, and I know this about my brain now too. Towards the end of the day, I'm exhausted. So is my team. If we're getting on a call, we'll say, I'll say, like, hey, I'll I my brain is so tired right now. Can we do a video off meeting? Um, we can just all be video off. It's just what I'm needing right now. And by me modeling that as the leader, I'm indicating to my team it's safe for you to advocate for what you need. And I'm mindful of what's best for all of us. Um, and so sometimes we'll do video off meetings. And if my employee comes to me one day and is like, hey, this is going on, it really helped me to have my video off. I'm gonna say, Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah. I was also thinking that maybe a group, like a normal when you go into the organization, help develop groups where they can meet. And if people want to share that they're neurodivergent or, you know, whatever they want to share, that people get to just know how each other, like on those slides. This is where I'm more productive, this is where I need help. You know, sometimes my mind is just wandering in the meetings, and it really does help to have uh those those notes after, you know, and those types of things. And people just come together as a team, and it just helps everybody. There's no blame, there's no shame, it's just kind of get to know you. And um, yeah, let's just try to come together as a team and be our best selves.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah, exactly. And that's what you know, our real heart and goal for the trainings that we do with companies and teams, is to be able to enable leaders and teams to have this conversation. How does your mind work? And what do you need to perform at your best? And so the four dimensions that you saw us train about, like executive functions, our information processing. We want you to have language to talk about it, where no one has to out themselves and say that they're neurodivergent. Right. Just this is how my mind works and this is what supports me. And as a whole team, we should be able to do that. If we want high-performing, effective teams, let's talk about how we work best together. This is a way to do that. And it's the most human connecting piece for all of us, right? As just humans. This is my brain.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

We really do also have to learn how to advocate, and it's okay

Advocacy Skills In Real Systems

SPEAKER_00 14:11

to advocate. It's just okay too. And, you know, I've seen this in the schools, and I tried to teach my three neurodivergent kids to ask for what they want or need. And I've seen it in the healthcare system and court systems, and you know, families are often expected, and I'm one to go into these IEP meetings, and these, you know, you've got five educators around the table and they're telling you what's best for your kid. And for a neurodivergent parent, that environment can be incredibly challenging and you know, processing slower and don't understand the language. And sometimes we can agree to things that we wouldn't before. Uh, and I also know people that have been in the courtroom that are neurodivergent and they just go along with whatever they don't even understand what's happening. So, do you think that sometimes confusing presentation with ability across many of our systems, it's it's across all of them.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yes, and masking plays such a huge role there as well. Um, I think one of the one of the things that we try to teach people to advocate for is that it's okay to not know that to your point, that advocating is is necessary and okay and should be more acceptable to to be able to say, you know, I didn't fully understand that. I'm gonna need a second to think it over before I reply. Or a manager asks for information. I don't have that available right now, but I can get it to you by end of day Thursday. I don't I don't have the answer to that question. I don't know. Let me look it up, spend some time, and give you a thorough reply when I have more of a chance. Um, even for these IEP meetings, not everyone can afford, most people can't afford an advocate or a lawyer to show up with them or an educational therapist to show up with them. So just being able to say, I'm gonna take some time with this um humongous packet that you just handed me that has all the critical information about the next entire school year for my child. I'm just gonna take a moment to make sure this is best.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. Um, listening to everything that we've been talking about, and it's been a lot, and we still have a little bit more, but I keep thinking about something that we've touched on throughout the conversation.

Masking And The Cost Of Belonging

SPEAKER_00 16:41

And when people spend years trying to communicate the right way and trying to figure out everybody else's language in the room and the systems and everything, you know, trying not to stand out, trying not to be misunderstood, not to appear not different, the different one in the room, eventually, you know, that effort becomes invisible because we don't even realize that that's what we're doing anymore. And it is that masking term that we keep talking about. And Jessica, I'd love to come back to your love letter for a second, because with the neurodivergent professionals where you wrote that you know uh, you know, you that we matter, that we see you, that we care. And I touched on a little bit on how we really do kind of just want to disappear sometimes, and we don't want people to notice us. We just want to blend and become someone, we just want to belong. So, why is that message that you gave so important?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Oh, when I wrote that love letter and credit to Zach at the Slowdown Summit, um, because we came to that together, I wrote it because, and we're gonna publish this, the love letter too, by the way. So when we when this goes live, we'll have it publicly available. When I wrote that love letter, I it was my attempt at an outpouring of humility, of saying, wow, how much I have learned from you from the neurodivergent people that I have encountered in my life and who've become friends now because neurodivergent people have just been too overlooked, too marginalized. I went to school where there was a special needs classroom and I didn't have any interaction. I didn't, I couldn't even think of people I went to school with that were autistic because I didn't know them. And my attempt at that letter was a humbling. I see what people have not seen in you. And so much of the coaching that Melody and I do with neurodivergent job candidates and professionals, the shifts that we see are mostly in confidence, in that shame removal of like, I'm starting a new job, I've worked so hard. People saying, My teachers told me I was not gonna graduate high school and I was not gonna go to college. And then here they are with a bachelor's degree. They're brilliant. And we coach on, you know, we practice some of the interview skills with them. The beautiful stories we have when on it's the beautiful match is when our job candidates, I mean, gosh, they're working so hard. And our managers and our companies who say, we want to learn to do this and we're gonna shift. And then we get to make that beautiful match. And then when Melody starts the coaching, so much of what I hear is our neurodivergent professionals who are like, oh my gosh, I landed the job. Now I'm gonna be found out. I people have told me I wasn't able, I'm not gonna be able to do this. Um, people told me I'm different from everyone else, and I have to work two times harder than everyone else to graduate high school and now to keep a job. And it's panic and it's worry. And so much of what we do is like reflecting back to them, like, wait, you got your bachelor's degree. You interviewed with five other people and you got chosen. And the manager, you know, all those things. And so this love letter was really just wanting people to feel seen and knowing what your struggles are, and to know that there are people who care about you and who want to see a world that is different for you and a workplace because my team that is neurodivergent, my friends who've become neurodivergent who are, you know, neurodivergent, have just changed me for the better. And what a privilege that is. And I just would love for more people to experience that and for neurodivergent people to just know they matter because we've done a terrible job in society telling people that what's different isn't accepted, and yeah, I could go on and on, but thank you.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

I I yeah, I it really touched me, and I too was told that I wouldn't graduate high school. Wow, I was told that, and they weren't wrong the with their diagnoses, but what they were wrong about was my determination. And uh I taught myself how to learn when I was young, uh very young. And it was incredible what I had to do versus my peers, but I got a master's degree. I was that determined, and I did really well in my master's degree. And I had to do a lot of, I mean, it took me hours and hours and hours to be able to get it, you know. Um, I had a roommate in college where she would just read it and go take a test and get an A. I would spend like 10 hours doing the same thing and get a C. It was fine. I knew what I had to do in order to get that C. And it was okay with me. But yeah, we we do have to be willing to work extra hard, and and that's okay. Um, and we do have the tools, we're given a toolbox, and we can fill it with the things that help us, and that's part of what's happening here. You know, you guys are part of that toolbox, so that's what I love about what you're doing. Um, we really do all want to come to the table as authentic professionals, and but the workplace sometimes it creates environments where people can bring, you know, some it's hard for them to bring their genuine selves when there's these expectations. So, you know, we hope that we can all come to the table with our authentic professional selves and it'd be okay, whatever that looks

Redesign Leadership And Performance Reviews

SPEAKER_00 23:34

like. If you could redesign one part of the average workplace, what would you do? What would it be?

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Melody, do you wanna do you have a thought first?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Uh I am the short processor in the group. I usually come to uh something to say relatively quickly. I guess I'm I'm such a people person. What I uh rather than any kind of structural change, what I would advocate for is for leaders to model, model what they want to see, model truth telling, model humility, um, model speaking up about your frailties, model advocating, um model I mean, I have a two-year-old niece who copies everything I do and say. And um that's so powerful when you're in a management position, any leadership position, the way that you are speaking to people around you, the way you are setting up the room for a meeting, um, your posture, um, your tone of voice. Everything that you can do to model the environment that you want to create, people will see you, notice you, mimic you. That's how you can change, make change.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah. When I was the director of um a school for kids with autism, I was an assistant director there. And oftentimes the director was out for long periods of time and I was placed in charge. And I wanted to be the that director that heard that one they would come to me with all kinds of questions, and I would just turn it back on them and ask them how they would like it and where they felt that they could thrive or what they thought would work in the classroom. Or and they really appreciated that. And I think, and I was the first one to always say, Well, I don't know, you know, let's try to figure that out together, or you know, or say, I'm really bad at this, you know, and admit admit the flaws, and you do that, that opens up for not for everybody else to not have to feel perfect in the room.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yes, yes, beautiful, exactly. That's gorgeous.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yeah, I think that that really is what everybody wants in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah, to add Melody, it's funny. That was when you asked Anna of the one thing that we would shift. Um same for me was the modeling that managers do and leaders, um, that responsibility to be the one to set the tone and to change. And what I would add then second to that is have conversations that it becomes normal in the workplace to have conversations about how your mind works and what you need to perform best. And um our attempt at putting that language in the world so people can say, This is yeah, like when I think deeply, I'm looking out the window. I am paying attention to you, but this is why you see me looking out because I'm thinking and considering deeply. I need to be able to do that first as a leader, and then I need to facilitate that with my team. And that's how we make a mindset shift, and then our behaviors can change from there.

unknown 27:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

And you don't have to be a leader positionally to be a leader in the room.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yes, yes. Yes, and oftentimes, unfortunately, it's the loudest person in the room, the person that can speak the speak the most eloquently, the one who's the first one to answer that question and things like that, that appears to be the one that is the leader. And it's the quiet one in the corner that might that's processed all of it very slowly and very slow to answer, that actually might be a really good leader. So it's kind of changing that definition. And I also would be the person that would have to stand off to the side in order to not look you in the face to hear you, you know. But I am a hundred percent paying attention to everything that you're you are saying. And I will be my best if I don't have to sit directly across from you, if I can sit a little diagonally to you so I can create my own space. And those are just they're just small things that create such a bigger, easier for us to be able to put perform better. And I I want to, we're gonna wrap here soon, but also a couple of other things, and one that really stuck out to me when I was thinking about this was performance reviews. And when people go in for performance reviews, oftentimes, just like the hiring, it has to do with it's a one size fits all. This is the form. And did you do these things the way this form says that you did? And you know, it's how can organizations turn them into conversations about helping people do their best work instead of comparing everyone to the same standard?

SPEAKER_02 29:28

This is tricky too, um, because what we do, we want performance criteria written down specifically. This is what great performance looks like versus just okay performance. We do have to, in words, write down what that means. What I would love to see shift is just a whole rehaul of how we do performance management. Um, but in that criteria, you know, when I was in even the workplace 10 years ago in the corporate workplace, there was attempts to um, it was looking at what we put value on, like you're saying, the loudest, strongest verbal communicators, and for people to step back and say, hold on, is that what we want every single one of our employees to do? Do we want everybody in the group being the most, the loudest? The no, we don't. We want to see, we want to appreciate people, the engineers. We talk about NASA engineers, the longer processors, because they consider every single impact. And like, thank God, thank God they're the long processors. I want to reward them and value that long processing, that consideration of all the impacts of what they're doing. That's what I want to measure. And not just, and like, here's the thing we're gonna measure people's performance, but I really want to see leaders emphasize the value, the strengths, the gifts that they're seeing in their employees, because too often it's what are you doing wrong? No, you need to spend more time also emphasizing what someone's doing really well and the value that they're contributing and let that be the way that you lead, you know, growth and change. Um, so I would just re-haul how we define the criteria. Um, we were looking even at like feminine versus masculine traits that we are oftentimes valuing what's more masculine, you could say. Um, but we know women are really good leaders of teams. And those the way you describe those characteristics tend to be more feminine words. Um and so we need to, it's the same concept for valuing every mind and defining what those criteria are, and then how we have those conversations, performance conversations.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

I would say as well on the performance conversation specifically, if your uh employees, if you are employing a neurodivergent individual um who might think more concretely, um literally, explicitly, um, we saw actually earlier a beautiful example of this. I gave the example of the dollar worth of dimes. Jessica's um wonderfully abstract brain took that concept and thought about what it meant. But when she reworded it verbally, she used uh pennies when she was explaining it. Any of our detail-oriented individuals who are listening immediately clocked that and said, Jessica said pennies, Melody said dimes. Any of our abstract thinkers went, same idea, doesn't matter, concepts there, move on. So we just saw that. So in if we take that now and highlight performance and interviews, we are the man the those in a management role are typically more of your abstract thinkers. So when they write a job description, they just assume the employee is gonna fill in the blanks. No, they're not. If you're gonna judge them on how well they filled in the blanks, that's a management issue, actually. You are not concrete and literal and explicit. That's a you problem. So it's for your employees then, think through what does that role actually require and list everything as explicitly as possible, not so that you're holding the employees' feet to the fire when it comes to that, but so you are communicating specifically about what the expectations are, and then your performance interview can go much more smoothly, and both of you will have talking points and um yeah, can just be clear about the necessities there.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

When a neurodivergent person is in the job, okay, yeah, and all these expectations and all these things are going on in the workforce in their job.

Retention During Change And New Managers

SPEAKER_00 34:34

How do you retain a neurodivergent individual? How do you keep them in the job? And I would imagine that maybe that it would be a high turnover for people who are neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

You imagine correctly. Um, we're managing a couple cases, advising on a couple cases right now. Um, you know, and initially when they when someone is hired and we do some coaching up front, we talk about all the best practices and everybody's on board and it's flowing very smoothly. And then, oh, a year and a half later, we change your manager. And that upsets the Apple cart because oftentimes that communication has not taken place. The new manager is unaware of any differences or is not implementing strategies that have worked. Um, there is confusion now about what the role requires, confusion about who do I report to? Are my priorities the same? And for a business, um, there's when you take on a new employee, that's an investment. You want to hang on to that employee. You don't want to have to go through a hiring interview process and spend time and money and resources, people, resources, um, training them, reach retraining and on all of that. So retention is key and useful and helpful to everybody. So I would say the biggest thing is when you are making a change around your neurodivergent employees, go back to best practices, look at your coaching notes that we provided at the beginning. Um, go back to the accommodations list, have a conversation with that employee. It doesn't have to be a diagnosis on paper for you to think about having that conversation. What are you then going to need now that I have made these changes? Preparation is key. As everything you can do to reduce ambiguity, to sit down and have that conversation. This is the way things are going to roll out. Spread it over some time. Within the next 12 weeks, these are the changes we're implementing.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

This is how it's going to affect you. Spend some time thinking about what you will need from me. And in two weeks, let's have a conversation again so we can make sure those structures are in place.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

This is so good.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

Anything else, Jess, to come to mind immediately? I we have we have dear humans on our hearts in this moment in a crisis here, um, along these lines. So this is top of mind.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

You are just these are just simple things. And it's just so you're it's not a lot. My I worked, but when I worked as the the assistant director at the school for autism, the director would continually change my job, continually change it. Yeah. And and she would with everybody else. Um, and the expectations would constantly change. And without on just a, you know, a drop of a you never knew when it was going to change. And it would have been hard for anybody, but we were a school full of neurodivergence. Yes. Almost everybody there had it. And you know, um, it really, if that would have happened, everything that you just said, it's kind of it takes me back to that the child, and I'll tell my neurodivergent kids, okay, we're gonna leave in 20 minutes. Now we're gonna leave in 10. Okay, in five minutes, this is what's going to happen, and this is what you need to do to prepare in order for us to leave. It's it's the same thing. All my kids are in DD, and they're also in uh some systems that and different things that help us with their differences. And uh they'll just change somebody on me that we've been working with for a year and a half, just bam, no longer. This is your new care coordinator. Or this person isn't trained, but is it okay if they sit in the meeting to get trained? No. Oh no. But then I was, but then I'm the wrong person for saying, no, we're not gonna be the family that trains them. I'm sorry. You know, so yeah, it's it's all of that. And I love what you just said. I mean, if people just entered into actually all relationships with that, not just at the workplace, but in the especially in the workplace, if there's going to be major changes, especially with their roles or with a person, um, that there's plenty of time for them to adjust.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

And who is that not good for? It's good for actually everybody.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Hey, and any kid that's you're trying to get your kid out of the pool, good luck. You're gonna want to back that up to 30 minutes. Hey, baby, we're gonna in 30 minutes time to go. Oh, in 10 minutes time to go, but you know what we're gonna do, we're gonna stop by and get some fries on the way home. Like preparation, reduce ambiguity. That's good for all minds. My husband and I do this. We're driving up north to see my family, and I'm in the car going, let's discuss expectations. Let's let's lay this out. How is this gonna go? Because I would love to not have an argument arise. That doesn't sound fun for me, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it just good for all minds.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yep. And you know, it's interesting, and when you shared that story, it triggered something in me because, you know, as like a startup scrappy nonprofit when we were just getting started, and actually, even now, the world's demanding us to pivot all the time and adjust to changing circumstances all the time. I think everybody is right now. I think about when one of my employees um left our organization, I asked, I said, do you have feedback to give me? What would you tell the next person coming in? Like, what do you wish you knew coming into our organization that could have helped you to perform better? Or that like you just would have wanted to know about us and our culture? Because I don't know. As a leader, I have no idea. And something she had said to me was give a heads up that this is a fast-paced changing organization and work and that we're pivoting all the time. Make that known that that is what is part of this work and the organization. And I was so appreciative of her telling me that because after that, from what Melody has taught me, the truth statements that we share, it's just making that known of like, hey, we're in a rapidly changing environment right now. I'm naming the stressors that I'm feeling as a leader. I'm naming the stressors that the organization is feeling right now. When people hear that, that face of a pyramid, like exactly what Melody was saying. This change is happening. We don't know these things yet. Just getting those out are going, it's going to help calm everybody. And even the truth statements of, you know, Melody and I use this all the time with each other, all the time. Like we're talking about all relationships, right? Like, I'm so grateful to have you as my partner. I want us to work well together. What do we need today?

SPEAKER_01 42:37

What do we need? What do you need today? I need today. I need to start with this. And you can't recognize, okay, recognizing what your needs are, that's thinking skills. That's way up here. Beneath that is your emotional skills. Beneath that is your body skills. So you have to practice this to learn. Oh, my chest is tight right now. Oh my gosh, my my neck is, I'm in pain. Some things, there's an emotion happening. Your body is the first to know that. So you have to be you have to train yourself to recognize those signals and then to say, here's the feeling, and then here's a thought that's encouraging that feeling. And now here's what I need to calm the thought, to calm the emotion, to calm the body. So, you know, you can't just show up and and say, Here's what I need for this workday to go well. These are taking these small steps. We we do do that all the time with each other.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

And we don't we don't assume that we can read each other's minds. I think that's critical. Um, and the penny and dime thing, I did not notice that at all. And when but to hear Melody call that out, I have so much safety with her that I it's there's no like, oh, she just called me out on public, you know. Like, no, none of that is because so many people. Partnership, friendship, relationship conversations of I trust you. We're such a good team. Oh my gosh, I didn't even realize that. But if we're not saying these things to each other, we wouldn't, the trust would be your rodent. And that's what happens in our working relationships when go all going all the way back to performance management.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Let me add that it is going back to your initial recommendation about education. Because the reason we are safe to do that is because we have educated ourselves about how the other person thinks. We know Melody's detail-oriented, Jessica's holistic-oriented. We know that those are perspective orientations that exist in neurodiversity. We can enjoy the things, uh, the strengths that each of those provide. And so when it is highlighted, um, we know that we're highlighting each other's strengths and not calling out deficits.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

I want to say this was kind of fun. Um, you said dimes, you said pennies, and I was thinking rocks. Um, and it's really funny because the whole time you were doing that, I was thinking about how uh I just did on a podcast about how every single time something more was happening, I was throwing another rock in my backpack and I was carrying it around. And so um it was just kind of like another layer to it, but it was just kind of funny that I was thinking rocks.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

We all have our different images. You were thinking about cognitive load, and I was thinking about losing cognitive capacity, yeah. Similar, yes, neurodiversity.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

There it is, yes, at work. All three of us were in the same conversation and we all had a different visual. Yes, Jessica and Melody, I'd love to end where this conversation began for me. Uh, when I heard you speak at the slow down summit, Jessica. I walked away with a completely different perspective for much of my life. I believe the goal was to adapt better, work harder, mask more, or say to Zach, no, I'm fine. Uh, you know, become the version of myself that fits more comfortably into the world around me. But after hearing your presentation, I left with a different thought. Maybe nothing was ever wrong with the way that my mind works. Maybe I simply spent years trying to succeed in systems that weren't designed for different ways of thinking. And I imagine that there are people who are listening today who have never heard these words before. And you both spent your careers helping organizations rethink the way that they hire, communicate, lead, and support people. To every neurodivergent person listening today, I want to leave you with Jessica's words. You matter. We see you, we care, we're so grateful that you're here, just as you are. Different doesn't mean deficient. Different minds bring different strengths, different ways of solving problems, different perspectives. And when we build workplaces that make room for those differences, everyone benefits. Jessica, Melody, thank you for both, thank you both for helping us move this conversation beyond awareness and toward meaningful change.

How To Connect And Learn More

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Before we go, though, how can they reach you? How can they learn more about NeuroTalentworks and connect with each of you? Because you have some great videos and helps on your website.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Thank you. Yes, you can find us at uh www.neurotalentworks.org. Um we're also on all social media channels as neurotalentworks. Um and you can email us info at neurotalentworks.org. And Melody.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Yeah, for my work, you can find me at rapporteducation.org for work with adolescents in in the educational space and in the consulting corporate world in at rapportconsulting.org.

Love Letter To Neurodivergent Professionals

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Before we get to the outro, I'm going to interrupt this episode to read the love letter that we've been talking about. It's a brilliant letter to neurodivergent individuals and leaders. And something that really touched me. It's through the slowdown summit that happened in Columbus, Ohio. And Jessica Lee is the one who wrote it with one of the leaders, Zach. And so I would like to read it. I own no part of this. This is 100% them. And they are going to be putting it out, and it's allowed to be out there. She said that uh that we can include it in the episode. So I'm actually going to read it, and I hope that you get as much out of it as I did. But this is my copy of the slowdown book that we got. And it's written by many brilliant people. So if anybody is interested in the slow down summit, just you can find them on the web. It's very easy. Just put in slow down summit and you will find them. Jessica Lee, a love letter to neurodivergent professionals. Dear neurodivergent professionals, what I most want you to know is that you matter. See, this is when it already hits me. I already want to tear up. We see you and we care. We are so grateful you are here just as you are. Not the version of you that learned to mask, not the version that stayed late to reread the email three times before sending or rehearsed the small talk before walking into a meeting, or smiled through an open office while every flickering light and overlapping conversation pulled at the edges of your focus. Not the version of you that got really good at adapting, the real you, the whole you, the one the world has failed to deeply understand and has been slow to make room for. I know that many of you have spent years, sometimes decades, trying to fit yourself into systems that were never built with you in mind. You know? I say that all the time. So good job, Jessica. Trying to fit yourself into systems that were never built with you in mind. Schools, workplaces, communities designed around a narrow idea of what value and contributions look like. I know that some of you have been told in one way or another that you are too much, too intense, too scattered, too quiet, too loud, too sensitive, too slow, too fast. I know that some of you internalized those messages for a very long time. And I know that some of you are still carrying the scars of them. I want you to know this. Those judgments were never about your worth. They were about the limits of systems and the knowledge around you. Our workplaces and our society at large have not done enough. We have built professional cultures around a single narrow view of how a mind is supposed to work, how a leader is supposed to communicate, how focus is supposed to look, how ambition is supposed to present itself. And in doing so, we have failed to see you, truly see what you bring to the table and what we have been missing out on. This is not your failure, it is ours, and it is time for change. Then she writes, what I see in you, what I know about neurodivergence is not from a textbook, but from the profound privilege of working alongside so many of you. I see the ADHD professional who can hyperfocus for six hours on a problem that no one else could crack, whose pattern recognition and creative leaps produce breakthroughs that linear thinkers simply cannot access. I see how the same mind that forgets the meeting time is holding 14 simultaneous threads of a complex system that no one else has even noticed yet. I see the autistic colleague whose attention to detail and organization is extraordinary, whose commitment to fairness and honesty anchors entire teams, who quietly and intently listens and takes in information from all parties and eloquently summarizes the point in one profound sentence, whose depths of expertise becomes the bedrock that products and organizations are built on, even when those same organizations hesitate or fail to provide basic accommodations that would allow such minds to do their best work. I see the person with sensory sensitivities who notices everything, not as a weakness, but as a form of profound attunement to the world. I see the anxious professional whose thoroughness and care are the reason the details get right. I see the quiet genius whose best ideas never made it into the meeting because they could not get a word in. The world is missing out, not in a small way, in a staggering, irreplaceable way, and it's time for the world to humbly reckon with it. Then she writes, What can't be ignored? I also want you to know that I see the very real challenges you face and the misunderstandings you have had to endure. I see the exhaustion of masking and making yourselves uncomfortable so that others can remain comfortable. I see the grief of jobs lost and the particular ache of unemployment, the hope of each new application, the silence, the rejection, and the gathering of courage to try again. I see relationships strained by misunderstandings and misinterpretations of your intent blame for conflict and miscommunication when the real problem is not you. The real pop problem is us. It is our judgment that blunt and direct speech is somehow impolite rather than honest and necessary. It is our discomfort with differences and nuances that are not familiar to us. It is our failure to ask, whose normal are we protecting? That's brilliant. I know that many of you have traded your mental health for professional success, and that is not a trade anyone should ever have to make. You return home exhausted from hours of smiling, making eye contact, appearing pleasant and unbothered, holding back your thoughts, suppressing the very physical expressions, the stimming, the movement, the self-regulation that your nervous system needs. None of that is weakness. All of it is labor. Jessica Lee, thank you. Invisible, relentless, uncompensated labor that takes a profound toll on your mental, emotional, and physical health. We must do better, she says. Then she's she goes into the last section. What I had to face within myself. As a neurotypical individual or a civilian, I didn't come into this knowing without some hard truths. I had to see and face within myself and want to know what you have taught me first, that I needed to get honest about my own limitations, about the ways I too have been shaped by a neurotypical lens and the judgments I did not know I was carrying. And the real kicker was how much I battled with accepting the things my mind simply cannot do and being okay with it. This is where I imagine my neurodivergent friends saying, Yep, welcome to my life at eight years old. I've always known I can't do certain things other people can do. True advocacy does not begin with expertise, it begins with humility and looking within ourselves first. I direckon with my innate thought of, well, if I can do it, someone else can too. I know now how very untrue that is and how harmful and damaging a thought like that is. What I now understand is that the very thing that neurotypical people like me need to practice most is the same humbling work that so many of you have been doing your entire lives, entering into another person's world, learning to see through a different mind's eyes, adapting rather than expecting others to constantly absorb the cost of your comfort and to stop judging what is unfamiliar as unapproachable. It's no surprise then that when organizational leaders are willing to join us in this work and learn with an intent to understand from someone else's perspective, something remarkable happens. They don't just become better managers of neurodivergent employees, they become better managers, parents, partners, siblings, friends, humans, ones that are more curious, more honest, more connected with what's real. Neurodiversity does not just simply teach us how to build better workplace practices. That's the bonus. It teaches us what it actually means to intently connect to another person. And that is the answer to something far bigger than inclusion. It is the answer to deeply human connection, more meaningful relationships, and a more honest way of being and relating with one another. That is what is at stake, and that is why this work matters so much. Our commitment to you, she says. I hope this letter and your presence here at the inaugural Slowdown Summit remind you you are never alone. Know that all of us and our team at NeuroTalentworks are with you and for you. We are committed to partnering with organizations to create conditions where your mind is not accommodated, but genuinely valued and uplifted. We are committed to being translators, building meaningful, real connection between the neurodivergent experience and workplace leaders who together have the opportunity to shift how things are done. We are committed to being creative practitioners of universal design, knowing that what is essential for some is helpful for all. We are committed to bringing practical knowledge to leaders, teams, hiring managers, and the people who write job descriptions, lead performance reviews, design offices so that the systems slowly, surely begin to change. We are committed to standing alongside you, amplifying your voice, learning from you, accountability to you, your place is here. May you know just how much you contribute to the world and that your heart and mind are valuable and needed just as you are. With deep respect, admiration, and commitment, Jessica Lee. I can't thank you enough, Jessica, and the slowdown summit for everything that you guys did for me, but for every other person that was there. And I really do pray with your love letter that I just read being published now, that there are so many people that can get so much out of it and take every single word of Jessica's and those in the slow down summit as a movement forward because this group of individuals, and I am one, have not been that represented in the workplace. It's really interesting how so many people who are in charge, none of them neurodivergent, and I'm talking about the ones who aren't neurodivergent, make the system and really do want us to conform, to adapt, to change. And it really doesn't help anybody. This is a group of individuals that are so misrepresented, so misunderstood, and the neurotypical world is so missing out on what we can offer. So I very much appreciate that the slowdown summit gets it. And those typicals that are doing that, and also, you know, like writing this, Jessica Lee wrote this from NeuroTalentWorks, uh, that we really do thank you. I thank you. And please contact NeuroTalentworks and contact Melody at rapport educational. So all the information is in this episode. Utilize it. All right, now we're gonna wrap.

Final Reflection And Closing

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

We spend so much of our lives believing that we have to become someone else in order to belong, that if we just work a little harder, mask a little better, or adapt a little more, we're we'll finally be enough. Maybe it begins when we're seen for who we've been all along. And maybe that's true not just in our workplace, but in our families, our schools, our friendships, and every place where people are given the opportunity to simply be themselves. Remember, as we always say on the podcast, there is purpose in the pain and there is hope in the journey. And we will see you next time.