Feb. 11, 2026

Belonging Begins Before Permission: Nancy Shear Part 2 | Creativity, Mentorship, and Life Inside Music

Send a text The room changes when a true maestro enters—yet the most revealing stories often happen offstage. We sit down with Nancy Shear to explore the hidden lives behind classical music’s brightest names and the personal courage it takes to step through doors that weren’t built for you. From a conductor who needed worship more than love to a cellist whose wild openness defied a regime, this is a lived portrait of power, devotion, and the craft most people never see. Nancy takes us inside...

The room changes when a true maestro enters—yet the most revealing stories often happen offstage. We sit down with Nancy Shear to explore the hidden lives behind classical music’s brightest names and the personal courage it takes to step through doors that weren’t built for you. From a conductor who needed worship more than love to a cellist whose wild openness defied a regime, this is a lived portrait of power, devotion, and the craft most people never see.

Nancy takes us inside a world of stage doors, library stacks, and late-night score study where color, balance, and bowings decide the fate of a performance. She speaks candidly about navigating inequity in the 60s, the “good girl” codes that marked the era, and the boundary crossings that come with proximity to influence. We trace the contrasts between Stokowski’s controlled, ageless aura and Rostropovich’s expansive, risk-soaked playing, then follow her to Cold War Moscow on a mission of friendship that became a lesson in fearlessness and human connection. Along the way, she reveals the origin of her book’s title, the thrill of shaking a hand that once shook Brahms’s, and the ritual of leaving soil from Beethoven and Mahler at a mentor’s grave.

This conversation is as tactile as it is philosophical: the scissors pressed into her palm, the hushed terror of a dressing room standoff, the way recordings fuse with memory until you can’t tell vibration from recollection. We talk about archives, firings, and where the music lives after the music stops. Most of all, we talk about belonging—how to claim it without permission, how to practice “good trouble,” and how persistence becomes destiny. If you’ve ever loved a sound enough to rebuild your life around it, this one is for you.

If the story resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves music and history, and leave a review so more listeners can find conversations like this. Your notes help keep these doors open.

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@Real Talk with Tina and Ann

Chapters

00:08 - Setting The Stage For Part Two

00:36 - Boundaries, Power, And Respect

04:03 - Adulation Versus Love

07:15 - Class, Image, And The Mask

10:50 - Control, Age Gaps, And Language

13:46 - Was More Ever Possible

16:40 - Ageless Energy And Legacy

19:20 - Fearless Trip To Soviet Moscow

23:38 - Enemies, Culture, And Connection

27:15 - Ormandy: Access And Retaliation

31:20 - Juggling Giants And A Photo

35:45 - Gatecrasher Feelings Persist

38:48 - The Man Who Knew Brahms

41:04 - Free Bowing And The Sound

44:30 - Archives, Firings, And Custody

48:15 - The Scissors And The Bond

51:55 - Grief, Memory, And Recordings

55:31 - Soil For A Maestro

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.

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I am Anne.

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Last week we had part one with Nancy Sheer.

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This week we're going to be doing part two.

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We're going to move beyond the stage and into the heart of what it means to grow, to belong, and to listen deeply to your own voice.

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This is where the stories become more intimate, where lessons are learned in silence as much as sound, and where we explore the unseen journey behind mastery, identity, and courage.

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This is part two.

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You once wrote that you could read him in much of the same way that you did your mom.

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And yet throughout your childhood and young adult life, you know, he never, you know, younger, he never crossed that line with you.

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And he was a womanizer, three wives, and affairs.

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And if he would have crossed that line with you when you were younger than you were, do you think that your book and your life would have been different?

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Absolutely.

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It would have been a horrible betrayal and probably would have it would have been it would have been abuse.

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Um but many years later, I knew him for, let's see, from about 65, no, earlier, 62, it's about 15 years.

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And I grew up during that time.

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And there was a time later, and I write about it with um I was attracted to him.

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And and I knew him, came to know him differently, which was had its own beauty.

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Um but if that had happened without my was more than consent, I I I was the one who had changed, and he was very pleased about that.

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But uh i if it had been when I was much younger, a very naive, protected kid, it would have been very damaging.

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Yeah, I thought so too.

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Uh what do you think stopped him?

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That's a really interesting you've asked some wonderful questions, and I have to tell you, some really perceptive, knowledgeable questions.

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What stopped him?

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I think I think there was some respect there for a a kid, a curious kid, who also worshipped him.

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And he knew that I did.

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I don't think it was any i it couldn't have been any secret that that he was a heroic figure in my life.

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And I don't think he wanted to lose that or or um or hurt me.

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I think I don't think he wanted to take a chance in hurting me.

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And I think he knew too that I I I wasn't looking at him in in that kind of a light.

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That this was the heroic musician.

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And and thank goodness he respected that.

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He he there was a lot of respect that went both ways.

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A lot.

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Yeah, I thought he really respected you, and he I think he genuinely loved you, and that was why.

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You know, so I mean that's what it felt like.

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Dikovsky created this youth orchestra, and he genuinely loved sitting with young people, and he really loved connection with everybody, but in general, he kept the closest people to him distant, and even his wives didn't truly know him.

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And he was married to Gloria Vanderbilt and had affairs with Greta Garbo, and still those women described him as being close in bed, but distant in life.

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And you wrote something that really stayed with me.

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You said that you think that he needed adulation more than love.

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Looking back, why do you think that was?

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Well, to really love someone, you have to you you have to and to have them love you, you really have to make yourself vulnerable and known.

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And known.

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And I think he was very frightened of people really knowing him.

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And I even I had to be very careful.

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Um there there were so many times, especially, you know, just at the dinner table, uh, where I would know how he would react to something and I'd avoid it.

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And I and I would just be but I didn't want him to know that I knew him that well, because then he he would sort of back up.

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But um I've always felt that um he grew up in in Victorian England, you know, he was born in 1882.

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Okay.

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In the England of that time, whatever your social class was, that's how it stayed.

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It wasn't so easy in those days to to make a great career if if and his parents were not poor, but they were not rich either.

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It was middle class.

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Right.

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And they lived in in a London suburb.

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And I think in his mind, he wanted to be royal.

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He wanted to be more certainly, if not royal, aristocratic.

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He wanted to be a member of the ar uh of the aristocracy, and and it was very important to people in England at that time.

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So um I think to really make yourself vulnerable in a love, loving relationship, that's risky to some people.

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Not everybody can do that, but he needed to be worshipped.

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And when I wrote that I think he needed adulation more than love, I think there were reasons.

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When when you worship somebody, they're up on that pedestal, and there's no risk involved uh for them.

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They don't have to make themselves known.

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But to to make yourself psychologically naked and known to someone else is can be very risky.

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And I think that's what was going on.

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You know, he climbed up on that podium as conductors did, and he was autonomous.

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Right.

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That was that was it.

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Um they did people did what he wanted as he wanted.

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Um and in a loving, close relationship, that doesn't fly.

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You don't want one person to to dominate.

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You'd hope that a loving relationship would just be more equal.

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Yeah.

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Um when you were uh, I think possibly the person that he did confide in the most about those things, about who he really was, about his father being a cabinet maker, uh, and about the history, his history.

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And he had lied about so much about his origin, his age, and his background, and wanted to be, you know, associated with affluence when he wasn't, well, you know, not to the degree that he wanted to.

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And yet you, you know, with you, he told you the truth.

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He even read you letters from his wife, Gloria Vanderbilt.

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And before, you know, what was really cool that I thought that he referred to you before you as B you, which says so much about how significant you were to him.

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So I wanted to ask you, do you think that you were the person who was truly closest to him?

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And do you think that anyone ever really knew him?

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I suspect that I probably was closer to him where he confided more in me than he did to to anyone else, but I don't know that for a fact.

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I I wasn't it was before I moved to New York.

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I was with him occasionally, but I didn't there m there may have been someone else.

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I don't know them, and I I don't suspect that there was, but I don't know uh definitively that he never confided in anyone else.

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I don't know that.

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But I want to say something that don't forget that I was not a member of royalty or the aristocracy, okay, nor nor was I a very wealthy woman.

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I wasn't socially prominent, I was not um what's the word I'm looking for?

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Um fashion model, beautiful.

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He he confided in me.

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Had I been someone with tremendous stature, maybe it would have been too risky for him.

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But I and I'm not I'm not belittling my relationship with him or the strength of our connection, but I'm being honest.

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That if I had been a very prominent person on my own at that time, he may not have risked that kind of closeness.

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Mm-hmm.

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It it just it seemed that he was ruled by control in all areas, even in closeness.

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And the women he chose were all decades younger than he was, which feels significant.

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Did you mind him calling you good girl?

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Because every time I read that I just kind of cringed a little.

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Don't forget this was the 60s.

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Uh women were identified as school teachers or secretaries, and the options were far fewer than than there than they are now.

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And the women in those positions would call their boss Mr.

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So-and-so, and the boss would call them by their first names.

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So there was tremendous inequity.

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Um this was before feminism.

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This was before this this was a whole different era.

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So, but also don't forget, there were four, there were he was sixty some years older than I was.

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Yes, yes.

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And and truth of it was I was a girl.

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I wasn't a woman yet.

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I was a girl.

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Right, right.

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And it was kind of fun.

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It was kind of cute when when he wrote something about sending him a bill, so be a a good girl, and then he put the parenthesis, but not too.

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It was just fun.

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It was cute.

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Well, it is really true that it was just completely different back then than it is now.

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Totally.

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Later in life, he did tell you that he did love you.

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And he did cross that boundary much later when he was in his 90s, and you know, there was that significant age difference that you talked about 60 years, and by then you were also involved with other well-known musicians in a romantic way.

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I want to ask this gently: do you think that uh Stakovsky was your person in the same way?

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Because you said that you really didn't want marriage or a traditional commitment.

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Do you think that if time had been different or if you had been closer in age, that the relationship could have been something more?

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Or did you want it to still exist the way it did?

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Um, I don't think it could have been more because I didn't have the stature that he needed.

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He really needed women who were who were either from great families or had tremendous amount of money.

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I'm not talking about, you know, upper middle class.

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I'm talking about much different situation.

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I certainly don't think there it would have been a a marriage relationship or a permanent relationship in that way.

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But one thing I that's really important, and I've talked to so many people about this, people who knew him really, really well in a business way.

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Okay.

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Um he was ageless.

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There are some people who don't get old.

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And even when he had trouble walking, when he was in his 90s, he he he was this incredibly impressive human being with an energy.

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You know, sometimes you don't have to run around the room to show how much energy it was some people can just be silent and still, and they exude this energy energy force.

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And he did.

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And I remember the one thing that everybody said about him.

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He is ageless.

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We would talk about it, you know, but well, like when I'd get back from England or France and I'd I'd see some musicians and and they'd say, Hey, where were you did you know you were visiting with Stokey, which was his his nickname in the world.

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And um, and I'd say, Yeah, and then and and they'd say something about, you know, well, he's in his eighties, his nineties, and we'd talk about the fact that he was ageless.

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It's a it's a phenomenon, but that's how it was.

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So I never felt there was an age gap at all.

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That is incredible.

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No.

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That is but you know, he was he was forty-two years older than Gloria Vanderbilt.

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His Right.

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Right.

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She was when they married, she was twenty-one and he was sixty-three.

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Um, Greta Garbo, there was a an age discrepancy.

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His second wife, I forget how, I think 15 years.

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She was fifteen years younger.

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It age meant numbers meant nothing.

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They have no meaning with him.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that's great.

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That's a really great way to be, I think.

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Because we could all meet if they're, you know, we don't pay attention to the age.

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And we can all, you know, learn so much from each other.

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So sometimes age gets in the way.

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Oh, absolutely.

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And and so I just had this discussion with with my close friend last night.

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We're talking about that if you want if you want an excuse not to do something, age is sometimes very convenient.

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Um now I understand, because I get it, that when you get older you don't have as much energy.

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You feel a little bit fragile, but still there's a hell of a lot you can do in life when you get older.

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He was working all the way up until the end.

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Eighteen I was with him eighteen days before, and right until literally the day he died.

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Uh, he was studying his score of the Rahman and Off Symphony number two, which he had never recorded in a studio recording.

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And the day he was supposed to record it was the day of his funeral.

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But he worked, he worked until the last minute.

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How wonderful.

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He was doing something he loved and he was accomplishing things.

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And oh, I I I can't think of a of a greater situation if that's what you want.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Now I want to switch gears to Slava Rostropovich.

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He was Russian, he did not speak much English, and he was open, emotionally defiant, and uncontained, and he lived large.

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He was a very famous cellist.

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How different was he from Stachovsky?

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I mean, they just seemed so different in that he woke something up in you that was different.

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Rostropych was wild.

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I mean, what you didn't know what was gonna happen.

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It was wild everything about him was larger than life.

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His music making and and his personality and and what he did in the world, and it was just huge, and and you just never knew.

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Now, Stakovsky was not predictable, but he was never, ever wild, or you never had the feeling that his music making or he were gonna be out of control with Rosterpool, but you didn't know.

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I remember sitting at Carnegie Hall and he was playing, and I thought, what he it was so fa it was fabulous and not and certainly not out of place musically.

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I'm not saying he did things that the composer didn't want, but you just didn't know when it was gonna veer out of control.

00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.600
It was it was remarkable.

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He and also, as you mentioned, his openness as a human being, he would tell, you know, it was like there were no secrets.

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He would not only tell me things, but I think he shared with other friends.

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He was extremely open, where Stukovsky was not.

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Their music making, both of them had this Slavic extroverted expressiveness.

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And so there were similarities in that way, as as well as the differences.

00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.079
His story really was interesting.

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And you there are opportunities, and then there's just like next level.

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And I have to tell you that, you know, Slava was still in Russia at the time, and he was in trouble.

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I mean, the Soviet government was not happy with him and he was banned, and they didn't want him touring, and eventually he would lose the citizenship and get it back.

00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:34.480
But I mean, you know, there was a lot going on.

00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:41.920
And before all of that really unfolded, you were worried about him and you needed to know if he was okay.

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So you went to Moscow during the Cold War as a young American Jewish woman to check out a dissident.

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I mean, that tells me everything about who you are.

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I mean, you've said that you didn't feel fear in those moments, only purpose and adventure, which I mean, I can feel that through the entire book, honestly.

00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:14.079
And you know, it comes down so clearly in your story that you weren't about fear, but would you do that again?

00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:15.119
Oh yeah.

00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.440
Now, are you talking about would I do it again back then or would I do it right now?

00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:20.160
Ever.

00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:20.880
I mean, yes.

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You know, now it it's different now.

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.039
Um, I'm I don't have the old energy that I did.

00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:31.119
I hope it's coming back, but been through a difficult time.

00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.240
I'm older.

00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:36.799
Um, I it it snowed two days ago in New York.

00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.880
And that's usually a major event in my life is snow.

00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:42.559
I love snow.

00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.079
I didn't go out.

00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.079
This is this is the only the second time in my life because I'm afraid of slipping.

00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.319
A friend of mine fell on the ice um Saturday afternoon.

00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:55.039
We were all together as a group on Friday.

00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:00.880
She, and she's younger than I am, she fell on the ice and broke her kneecap.

00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:05.440
So would I go charging off now to Russia?

00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:24.960
No, I I think I'd be uh I'd be concerned physically, uh, maybe even as far as the authorities were concerned, because there were stories about Americans being arrested or or they would take a photograph of an empty lot and they'd end up in jail.

00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:29.519
And um, but I had zero I had zero fear.

00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:39.519
I was just gonna find my friend Rostropovich, whom I cared deeply about, and and I was gonna have one of the great adventures of my life.

00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:42.000
It may have may have been the greatest adventure.

00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:51.200
It was really oh well, you know, also I'm Jewish third generation, second and third generation American.

00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:59.680
Um so my great-grandparents and and one of my no then two of my grandparents came here.

00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:00.720
They were extremely young.

00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:06.640
My grandfather was five, my grandmother was two, and they came to the United States.

00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:15.359
Um, so I had I had a feeling for what they called in those days in Jewish homes the old country.

00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.680
That's how they would refer to Russia, Poland, Austria.

00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:30.799
Oh, my aunt, one of my uncles said you're going back to the he says our our family, our grandparents, our parents and grandparents risked their lives to get out of there, and you're paying to get back.

00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:31.440
Right.

00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:38.640
You know, they didn't understand that I wanted to it's also the Russian culture with classical music.

00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:43.440
We're talking about Tchaikovsky, Rimsky Korsikov, Mzorgsky.

00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:44.720
I can go on and on.

00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.559
Uh Pushkin, poets.

00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:51.200
There was a romantic quality about that country, and I wanted to get to know it.

00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:53.359
Great, great, great experience.

00:20:53.599 --> 00:21:00.160
The the um the powers there, the government was horrible.

00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:03.759
The people were beautiful.

00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:10.559
I had so many deeply touching encounters with Russians who were supposed to be enemies.

00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:21.119
We weren't supposed to care about each other on New Year's Eve 1971 and Red Square passing bowls of champagne through this whole crowd.

00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.559
I mean, if there was one germ, we were all gonna get it.

00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:28.319
Um everybody was drinking out of these bowls.

00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:44.799
It was like a communal bowl of champagne, and I looked around as as the you know the great Kremlin clock struck midnight and the bells rang, and I'm looking around and I'm thinking, these human beings are supposed to be my enemies.

00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:50.880
Yeah, I had I had very profound connections with a lot of people in those days.

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:58.079
You know, I often say if we let go of all of those things, you know, we're more alike than people realize.

00:21:58.240 --> 00:21:58.960
We really are.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.720
Absolutely right.

00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.000
Absolutely right.

00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:06.079
What a beautiful experience that you had.

00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:07.279
Oh my gosh.

00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.240
I'm you know, as terrified I w as I was for you when I read that.

00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.279
I mean, you know, look what you walked away with.

00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:19.039
Yeah, that w that was it was really was astonishing.

00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:25.519
Uh you know, I I I I think we regret what we don't do more than what we do.

00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.119
Hundred yep.

00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:36.960
And what scares me is that if I hadn't gone in 1970, if I hadn't gone to Russia, um, I never would have known what I had missed.

00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:42.480
I wouldn't have known what this trip would do and and the worlds it would open.

00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:55.200
And and there it you know, there is something that's like this is from Eleanor Roosevelt too, is about courage and taking chances and putting yourself out there, especially if somebody else is going to benefit.

00:22:55.599 --> 00:23:05.119
You know, I want to talk for a moment about Eugene Ormandy because your relationship with him feels complicated in a very different way.

00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:11.839
And he was a powerful conductor at the Philadelphia Orchestra and instrumental in your early access to the concert hall.

00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.279
I mean, he's literally the one that gave you the ticket to get in.

00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.440
And he opened the door for you.

00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:25.920
I mean, literally and figuratively, really, in a way, but he was also not well liked and not that kind at times.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:35.599
And he didn't um want you to have a relationship with Leopold Stakovsky and explicitly ordered you not to.

00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:39.279
So that alone put you in an impossible situation.

00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:43.119
And then there were moments where he crossed boundaries.

00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.960
Now talk about your life changing um or what it could have been.

00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.160
You know, I mean, he courted you, he cornered you for a kiss.

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:55.279
He asked you to deliver music to his apartment, and he wouldn't let you leave.

00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:02.799
And he was controlling in ways that extended even to how you looked, you know, the sunglasses on your head, take them off.

00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:04.240
And you complied.

00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:16.160
What made it even more complicated was that Ormondy later discovered through the Philadelphia newspaper after Stakovsky's death that you had been working with both of them.

00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.920
And he refused to talk to you after that for years.

00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:30.480
And when you look back on that period now, being young and dependent and on access, navigating powerful men, mixed gratitude, fear, and silence.

00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.240
How do you make sense of it?

00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:37.519
And what do you wish that people understood about what it cost to simply exist in those spaces?

00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:45.599
I had to be very, very careful because Ormond D was very petty and very easily threatened.

00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.799
He did not have a whole lot of confidence in any way.

00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:54.799
A lot of it came from his height because he was, I think, five, five foot six.

00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:55.359
Okay.

00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:00.960
Yeah, and he did wear platform shoes, but you know, Sttukovsky was 6'2.

00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.359
So I there were there were a lot of reasons.

00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:11.519
There was a tremendous amount of jealousy and regret from Sttukovsky, who was King of Philadelphia.

00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.359
Ormondy never reached that.

00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:17.119
But Ormondy was highly, highly regarded.

00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:22.319
Even to this day, people will say, You worked with Eugene Ormondy.

00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.960
And I'll and I'll sometimes I explain my feelings, sometimes I don't.

00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:33.039
So he still had and has a tremendous reputation.

00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.720
Um, I did not respect him as a person.

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.839
I did not like what he did musically.

00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:42.880
Um everything was very predictable.

00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.319
He didn't take chances.

00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:51.920
I do like people who take ch take some chances or have a an unusual voice, especially artists.

00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:58.559
That's what that's part of what they're supposed to do is have a different vision of the world and the art.

00:25:58.799 --> 00:26:01.759
So no, Ormondy and I did not like each other.

00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:07.519
Um what hurt me was that I loved Ormandy's wife.

00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:12.640
She was a darling human being who was long-suffering.

00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.880
And um and we both we looked very much alike.

00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:25.359
So after the concerts, I would go back with his scores, and people would look at me and say, Oh, you're the Ormandy's daughter.

00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:31.279
And I loved that because she was she was such a a warm, good soul.

00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:34.079
And she stopped speaking to me too.

00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:39.680
She considered it uh that I was disloyal to both of them.

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.839
But she had her problems with him.

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:50.559
I remember conversations when I was up in the library and she would call and she she put up with a lot from him.

00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:51.680
So she knew.

00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:52.559
She knew.

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.680
But we were reunited at the Van Kleibern competition in 1989.

00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:01.200
I hadn't seen her in many, many years.

00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:08.400
Well, it was probably, let's say, 1970s, 19 maybe maybe it was 17, 18 years.

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.839
But I saw her at the Van Kleibern competition.

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.640
And she ignored me completely.

00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:20.559
And I and I went over to her and I bent down and I said, Do you know who I am?

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.960
And with the very angry, she said, Of course I know who you are.

00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.480
And I was so wasn't being hurt.

00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:29.839
I was just sad.

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.839
And I looked at her and I said, I always loved you.

00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:36.240
And I walked away.

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:43.119
And we had a couple of words after that, just you know, small talk, but but it hurt.

00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:44.240
It hurt a lot.

00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:46.480
She was someone I had cared about.

00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.799
Yeah, because it was something over so trivia something so trivial.

00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:56.640
They didn't consider it trivial, they considered it, you know, a It was a big deal.

00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.839
It was to them, which which shows how insecure he was and transferred it to her.

00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:04.240
Yeah.

00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.519
Complicates, these human beings.

00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:10.000
All about Yeah.

00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.200
You guys were all strong personalities.

00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:37.200
I mean, Strakovsky was, and Slava was, and you were, and you were all very enmeshed in each other's lives, and you hid the men from each other, not letting Strakovsky know that you were still involved, involved in Slava's life, and you didn't let the conductor Ormondy know that you were still working with Strakovsky.

00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.880
So, I mean, it was a constant juggling on your part.

00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:57.279
It was nice to see, though, that even though you were doing that, that these men wanted you, they they wanted you to do it, but you were still in control and you knew what you wanted, and you were actually a great chess player in their game.

00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:03.599
I that's what I thought is that you were a great player in this game, and you belonged there.

00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:29.680
You were the reason the only picture of the two of them together exists, and you met Stakovsky at the door, at the stage door, and then you walked to the the dressing room, and there was Ormandy in the dressing room, and they ended up, they stood there and they stayed for a a picture, and that photo represented 53 years of orchestra music dictatorship.

00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:32.400
What did it feel like to witness that picture?

00:29:32.720 --> 00:30:03.119
Oh, I was terrified because the problem was that I the tradition uh what that I had with Stokovski is I'd meet him at the stage door, and then I he'd hand me his briefcase, and it was kind of a fun thing, and he put his hand, he'd have his hand uh on on my shoulder, and and we'd go back to his dressing room, never ever thinking that Ormandy would be there, and and that my cover was blown.

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.119
Now I walk back and I'm holding the suitcase.

00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:12.480
Dukowski has his hand on my shoulder and we o and we knock on the door and Ormandy opens it.

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.319
So I was petrified that I was gonna lose my job, and I came very close to it.

00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:24.720
Then Ormandy, you know, the this honorific people don't use it always in the right way of maestro.

00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.440
Uh maestro, which translates in Italian to master.

00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:30.480
Okay.

00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:34.400
Everybody will will refer to a conductor as maestro.

00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:35.680
No, no, no, no, no.

00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:44.720
That you can do to their face, but behind their back, very few orchestras call the conductor, refer to him as maestro.

00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:47.359
But with Stukovsky, the Philadelphia Orchestra did.

00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.519
It was always the my the maestro.

00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:59.119
So when I walked back with Stakovsky, and and there was Ormandy who walked over to me, I was still holding the suitcase out of fear.

00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.319
I I mean, I was frozen with fear.

00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:03.200
Right, right.

00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:09.359
And Ormondy says, put that down quietly enough so Stukovsky wouldn't hear him.

00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:16.640
And I made that horrible mistake of saying, I don't know where Maestro wants it, Mr.

00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:17.519
Ormondy.

00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:18.960
Terrible.

00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:31.920
I went, oh and the next morning Ormondy had his secretary call the librarian of the orchestra and say, you tell Nancy to stay away from Stakovski.

00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.000
But you know, it's interesting.

00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:39.119
I never thought of this as a game or a chess game or making moves.

00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:41.519
It wasn't, it was just living life.

00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:42.240
Mm-hmm.

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:47.039
But you were good at it, regardless of if it was a game or not.

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:58.079
You you were very good at reading, and it does does probably stem back all the way from your childhood of being able to read the people in the room and knowing what to do.

00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:00.799
I had to have antenna like this.

00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:14.079
I had to know everything that was going on all the time because I had to know when my mother was upset or if something would upset her or trigger an emotional response.

00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:20.480
And that is always that that's that's a skill you develop that that you never lose.

00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:21.200
I agree.

00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:21.839
I agree.

00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:30.640
You you worked really hard for your degree, and when Stakovsky told you to complete it in three years, I mean you did it.

00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:32.640
You didn't even question him.

00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.359
And that decision led you into extraordinary spaces.

00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:52.079
You went on to work with already were working with some of the finest orchestras in the world, eventually landing what you've called your best job at the Curtis Institute of Music, one of the most prestigious conservatories anywhere.

00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.039
Only 140 students get in, you said, and on full scholarship.

00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.400
Even millionaires don't pay to attend, you said.

00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:12.160
And along the way, you worked in radio and a journalist, and you held the original scores of the great composers in your hands, studying them line by line.

00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:20.640
You helped the maestro and legendary conductors shape performances, adjusting music for acoustics, space, mood.

00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:24.799
And you weren't just near history, you were trusted with it.

00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:31.519
So when you look back now, I want to ask this: was this the life that you wanted?

00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:37.039
Was this the life that you dreamed of as that young girl sitting on the steps hoping someone would let you in?

00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:45.519
Going back just for a second to the Curtis Institute, that wasn't what I considered my my most beloved job.

00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:54.480
Um the Philadelphia Orchestra really that was, yeah, even at my age now, I look back on that as just a golden time.

00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:11.920
Uh Curtis Institute, the students were so wonderful and so loving and lovable, and that 50 years later, I am still in very close touch with a number of them.

00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:14.639
I thought I was gonna be a journalist.

00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.960
I thought I was going to devote my entire life to writing.

00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:31.920
I wrote in when I was like 14 years old to Eleanor Roosevelt, because I've received the letters, that I was gonna be a United Nations delegate because I was gonna help get peace in the world, you know.

00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:35.039
Okay I didn't really dream about it.

00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.079
It it happened.

00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:37.920
I'm I'm thrilled that it did.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:45.519
It did because every next minute I was involved in something else with music.

00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:59.599
Uh but I will say that the last 60 years, and I don't feel that old, have been a great, great privilege to work with the way I have.

00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:01.119
That's a privilege.

00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:02.000
Yeah.

00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:05.760
I'm still endlessly thrilled to have had that.

00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:07.440
I hope to continue with it.

00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:14.000
Yeah, you know, decades after that you had earned your place in the music world and were deeply respected in your own right.

00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:19.039
Uh you said that you, when you sat in the audience, you sometimes still felt like a gate crasher.

00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.639
Oh, absolutely.

00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:22.320
I'll never lose that.

00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:23.679
Yeah, okay.

00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:24.960
I was wondering.

00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.639
Oh no, I'll never lose that.

00:35:26.719 --> 00:35:32.880
You know, in fact, I'm hoping to hear um Tristan and Isolda at the Metropolitan Opera in March.

00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:36.400