Feb. 4, 2026

Belonging Begins Before Permission: Nancy Schear’s Story Inside the Mind of Music’s Greats

Send us a text A teenage girl finds her way through the stage door and into the inner life of a great orchestra, learning how courage, craft and attention can open rooms that seem shut. Nancy Shear reflects on mentors, trauma, Stokowski’s charisma and the quiet work that shapes sound. • sneaking into the Academy of Music and earning trust • learning the orchestra library and serving an apprenticeship • confidence without permission and Eleanor Roosevelt’s influence • caregiving at home, trau...

Send us a text

A teenage girl finds her way through the stage door and into the inner life of a great orchestra, learning how courage, craft and attention can open rooms that seem shut. Nancy Shear reflects on mentors, trauma, Stokowski’s charisma and the quiet work that shapes sound.

• sneaking into the Academy of Music and earning trust
• learning the orchestra library and serving an apprenticeship
• confidence without permission and Eleanor Roosevelt’s influence
• caregiving at home, trauma, and independence
• music as refuge across classical, pop and Broadway
• first encounters with Stokowski’s charisma and control
• conducting with the eyes and the mystery of communication
• sensory life, hearing a sunrise, painting on silence
• gender dynamics, protection, boundaries and respect
• choosing proximity without losing independence

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@Real Talk with Tina and Ann

Chapters

00:08 - Setting The Stage: Nancy’s Origin

04:32 - Sneaking In And Finding A Way

10:40 - Confidence, Permission, And Role Models

18:25 - Caregiving, Trauma, And Independence

26:40 - Music As Refuge And Wide Tastes

34:24 - First Sight Of Stokowski’s Power

43:20 - Apprenticeship In The Library

51:00 - Protection, Gender, And Respect

58:10 - Charisma, Control, And Access

Transcript

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Welcome to Real Talk with Tina and Anne.

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I am Anne, and today's guest has lived a life worth talking about.

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Nancy Scheer was just 15 years old when she began sneaking into the Philadelphia Orchestra concerts through the stage door.

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She didn't have a ticket, but she knew that she belonged inside.

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Two years later, at 17, the orchestra hired her to help prepare the music.

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And by 18, Nancy became the personal librarian of one of the most legendary conductors in history, Leopold Strakovsky.

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Yes, that's Strachovsky.

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The conductor immortalized in Disney's Vantasia, portrayed alongside Mickey Mouse, married to Gloria Vanderbilt, and known as one of the most influential musical visionaries of the 20th century.

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In a world that was almost entirely closed to women, Nancy didn't just get in.

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She stayed, and she worked behind the scenes at the highest levels of classical music, holding original scores, preparing music for rehearsals and performances, and earning the trust of some of the most powerful figures in the field.

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Her memoir, I Know a Man, who knew Brahms, is a rare and intimate look inside the inner workings of a major symphony orchestra doing what many would consider the golden age of classical music through Nancy's eyes.

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We are taken into rehearsals and concerts and homes and studios and private moments with legendary musicians and composers and conductors.

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Because Nancy began this career so young and lived it from the inside, she may be one of the last people able to tell this story firsthand.

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And that makes her voice, her memories, and this book very special.

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Nancy, I am honored to have you on the show today.

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And I'm honored to be on the show with you.

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Thank you so much.

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I enjoyed your book so much.

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And the word that kept going through my head about you was intriguing.

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Your book is about so much.

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On one level, it is an autobiography filled with these up-close and personal moments with some of the most famous conductors and composers and musicians of your of our time.

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But really, at its core, it's the story of you and how you became so deeply woven into the lives of these musical geniuses and how the world slowly became your home.

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I was hooked because you were and still are an opportunist in the best possible way.

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You knew what you wanted at a very young age.

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And honestly, that's something that I think that we can all admire.

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You showed up even when doors were closed, and you kept showing up without worrying about whether it looked strange or awkward or maybe a little bit stalkerish.

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And you were still a kid.

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You were 15 showing up at the Philadelphia Orchestra concerts without money.

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And instead of walking away, you figured it out.

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And what really struck me is that things didn't just fall into your lap.

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They happened because you didn't give up because you kept showing up.

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And this might be a strange place to start, but I really respect how clearly you knew yourself and how you carved your life from that knowing, from age 15 or even 14, really, all the way until now.

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So I want to start here.

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Can you take us back to that girl, the one sitting on the steps where the musicians entered, making sure that they knew your face, they were recognizing it at the very place that you were invited in, and where you created your own place inside the orchestra working in the library with some of the greatest musicians in the world.

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So take me to the girl sitting on those steps.

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It was really about love.

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And I'm talking about a love of music that was and is so intense that it had its own power.

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And and all I knew was that there there was music going on inside that that brick building, the Academy of Music, and I had to hear it.

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I just had to be in there.

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It was a perfect world.

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And penetrate that building.

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How do you get how do you get in there?

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You can't go in through a window, can't climb up to the balcony on the what was it?

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You know, they they're they don't really have floors there, but you know, it's pretty near the roof.

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That's that you can't do it.

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So I had to figure out a way of a possibility of getting in there.

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And and I I had been given a free ticket, and um I decided I was going back the next week.

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Didn't have a ticket at that point, so I went to the box office and I said I'd like to buy a ticket.

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Um and this love well, she wasn't at first she wasn't lovely, she was very gruff, and that's part of the story.

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Okay.

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Um at at the box office, and she said, Um, it's a dollar twenty-five.

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I didn't have a dollar twenty-five.

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Right.

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I can't worry had to worry about car fare, get you know, getting in on the the there was a bus and then um the elevated subway, and then I would either have to walk or take another bus.

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Uh so she gave me a pass.

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And then she couldn't keep doing that.

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I could not keep trying to get in with somebody who had an extra ticket in the lobby.

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So I realized uh I had passed the stage door, and that's where I went.

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But it was really about just desperation to get into that hole.

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Yeah, I felt that I really did.

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And, you know, this wasn't a time, uh, it was a different time than what we have now.

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I mean, women, especially young girls, were not treated as equals in orchestras or in leadership spaces, and those worlds were dominated by men.

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And the rules weren't exactly written with you in mind, but what stood out to me is that your confidence almost demanded respect.

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And you walked into those spaces like you belonged there long before anyone else said that you did.

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And honestly, that's something to really learn from.

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Where do you think that that confidence came from?

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And how do you how did you know that you belonged even before you had the experience to prove it?

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I didn't write about this very much.

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I think there was a sentence or two, but um women at that time, what you were describing, absolutely correct, with one exception.

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Okay.

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Eleanor Roosevelt.

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And I was very young.

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Um, we're we're talking about the what was it, around 1962.

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Um, but I had become aware of Eleanor Roosevelt when I was seven or eight years old.

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So it was years before that.

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I saw her on television.

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I saw her being interviewed, and then I was so intrigued that I started to read a lot about her.

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So that she has been uh more than a role model, it's a spiritual figure that borders on the religious.

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And if I get into trouble or I'm upset, I I can I can go to her example and and it gives me courage how I can go in where possibly where I don't belong and where I may not be wanted.

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And you used a very interesting word about permission.

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I don't want to ask for permission anymore.

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Um if I'm not hurting anybody and it's something where I can benefit and and and other people can benefit, permission is not always necessary.

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So I I I try to communicate that also to young people, men and women, that do do what you can create live creatively, but but do what you can to make the world a better place, make your world a better place.

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So it was really I had one woman at that time, a prominent woman who whom I just I I loved her her image and her example.

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So that was a great help.

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You know, I think people like that helped get me through my life as well.

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And I asked that question because, and I'm glad that you held on to what she gave you, because in your home life, you know, you didn't have that, and you didn't have a reason to maybe believe in yourself.

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You had to take care of your mom who had mental health issues, and your dad was emotionally abusive to your mom and to you, really.

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And he would spend hours and a day and night yelling at your mom.

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How did you stay true to who you were?

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Was it like Eleanor Reza Roosevelt and thing, people like that, to help you stay on your path and believe in yourself when you were not receiving what you needed to at home?

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It's hard to know what's what a person is born with uh and what they're given by various influences in their life.

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But my my mother was a beautiful human being and she suffered a lot, but um there was always uh this wonderful communication between us, and she loved music.

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So I think a a lot of uh of confidence, whatever, came really came from her.

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I loved your relationship with your mom, even though that things were so hard for you.

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You were forced into an adult role very young.

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Absolutely.

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You know, you yeah, you you were caring for her emotionally and listening through the night to your father's rage, always staying alert in case your mom needed you.

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And that's a lot for a child to carry.

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What did that do to you long term?

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Do you think that that experience is what pushed you to carve your own path so early to become independent before most kids even knew how?

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You know, it's interesting.

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Um, if if you are an only child, because it's far I feel it's far more intense um the strength of the relationship with my mother than if I had had one or more siblings.

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And um Yeah, it it's it's not appropriate for a child to be put in a position of being a caregiver for a parent.

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But what what are the choices?

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I I never I never thought of not trying to help her.

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Exactly.

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But it it it it changes who you are, it shapes your personality, your needs, your wants, your everything about um your the image, your self-image, it it it changes who you are.

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Yeah, I I was curious when I was reading about your relationship with your mom, that balancing that you had to have between your mom's needs and your dreams, and how you had to hold that tension, wanting to protect her while you were also wanting a life of your own.

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Yeah, it was very, very tough.

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And and it got to be really more difficult um when I because my parents asked me what I wanted for my 12th birthday, and I didn't hesitate.

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I said, I want to go to New York.

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Because I had this image of New York City as you know, it's a spectacular place, and um and it took me 22 years to get here, and I'm here, and it is that fabulous, spectacular place.

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It's tough.

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But um that was really where I had to confront um my wishes and my mother's needs and try to resolve it.

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And uh and I did.

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If she hadn't loved New York the way she did too, I I wonder whether I would have had the courage to make the break and move from Philadelphia to New York.

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But um so yeah, it was it was very difficult um trying to balance what she needed with what I needed.

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But oh, you could tell.

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But music really was your refuge as a teenager and and with your mom.

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And it wasn't just something that you loved, it was something that held you.

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And you wrote that you can't think about that living room of your childhood home without hearing music constantly playing, you know, that image of you as a toddler, uh with on your tiptoes, staring into the grooves of a spinning record, because I was that kid too, you know, growing up in abusive home, sitting in front of the record player, playing the same songs over and over, eyes closed, studying the album covers, getting completely lost in the music.

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You know, music got me through my childhood.

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So I understood exactly what you were talking about.

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And I love the way that you wrote about listening with your mom, how she would ask you what you saw.

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You know, you saw clouds and she saw landscapes.

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And that feels like such a tender moment between you two in the middle of chaos.

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To place the needle on the record, hear the soft crackle as it hits the vinyl, and just listen.

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You know, no scrolling, no distractions, just sound and imagination.

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Can you take us back there to that house, to that room, to that sound?

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It's a painful place to go.

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Um it's difficult.

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And and I have put off.

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Uh, I have a very, very close friend that I share a lot with, and and I was telling her about my childhood, and I said, next, next time we're together, I'll go over to the computer and I'll show you where I grew up.

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Because it was uh very typical Philadelphia suburb.

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Philadelphia is known for a lot of brick, and um and and this was um this row of houses, they all looked the same.

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Every other one had a a a different like like one had a pointed front, uh like sort of a not the roof, but a design over the doorway, and the other had a flat one.

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But I didn't know my I didn't know my my house from any other.

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My mother found me one day s sitting on the curb sobbing because I didn't know which house was mine.

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I didn't know I was like it was being lost.

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Um but uh my mother had uh had always listened to classical music.

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Yeah it it became uh it became something that I loved to a point.

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And then I heard Elvis Presley.

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Okay.

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And okay, yeah, and that, you know, I still, I still I'm looking, I'm in my studio now, I'm looking right over at the at the bookcase, and I've got my El Elvis's Golden Records, which I think was 1958 or so.

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It was just before the Philadelphia Orchestra uh became part of my life.

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But music is it it it's still in my life a source of such self-expression, pleasure, um discovery.

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Um it's just and I wish I wish that people listen to more classical music because along with all the pop and and um and rock, I love still love rock.

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It's you know, I I wish more people were were listening to it today, but it but in my home, it um it was more than a refuge, it was just something that that delivered such intense pleasure.

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And and after all these years, still does see that's beautiful.

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You know, I got the record I got the record player, my old record player out, and we put it in what the boys call their game room.

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And um, my nine-year-old, he absolutely just sat in front of that record player and just kept and we had Elvis Presley record and he put it on and he just kept listening to it, and it took me back to my days, and I'm so glad I got that moment with him and that he's so into it now.

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He just sits there and listens to records.

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Love it.

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I know, I know.

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And what did you listen to when you when you were talking about your record player and what what kind of music were you listening to?

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All kinds.

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I I love classical, I love um rock.

00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:51.440
I and back then it was Elvis and uh I loved Broadway.

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I was a big Broadway musical person, and I would listen to West Side's story over and over again.

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And um gosh, so many, even you know, the more poppy, like Donnie Osman and the Jacksons and things like that, you know.

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I mean, I loved it all.

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Yeah, yeah, and that's something I I really envy because in my day, and I don't know why this was the case, you either listen to pop or you listened to classical.

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And and that was it.

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And um not until much later, I think it it's it was uh maybe I don't know, 20 years ago or so, that um I was meeting people, young people, who were listening to everything.

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They were listening to classical, they were listening to rap, pop, everything.

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And uh and that is so wonderful and so not gonna I was gonna use the word healthy, but it's just uh just wonderful to have all those worlds available.

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But in my time, it was classical and and classical music people back then were a little bit snobbish, and I think it did the art form a lot of harm because uh they would talk about classical music as being the epitome of great art.

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Um and everything else was not as good quality.

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It's not true.

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You can listen to everything and love it equally.

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Oh, I agree.

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I'm big, I'm eclectic.

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I love it all, and music carried me.

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So it's very important to me, and I like uh introducing all genres to my kids.

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I think it's very important that they know all genres.

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Uh you you did write about your mom listening to music with the TV tray in the Philadelphia row home, and I grew up going to my aunt's row home in Philadelphia in little Italy.

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I was there all the time, and I loved it.

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And there's something about those homes.

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They do look all look all alike, though.

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You were right.

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But in your house when your dad came home, everything would shift and the music would stop.

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You know, isn't it terrifying how one person can walk into a room and completely change the entire atmosphere?

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Especially when he is the father of the house.

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Right.

00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.440
And all powerful, especially to a kid.

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And had the ability to to terrify us and my mother.

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Yeah.

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And uh yeah, we that that music stopped very very quick.

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As soon as we heard the the car pull up and then the key in the door, music went off.

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It was silence.

00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:44.960
That's so sad.

00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:46.960
Oh my gosh.

00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.880
Yeah, he he was a very scary figure.

00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:52.079
Oh, he was.

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But but now that I've gotten uh some distance and a little bit of knowledge and maturity, uh, he he was scary, but also a very, very pathetic figure, too.

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This was not a a well-adjusted human being.

00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:20.559
Um and and he he must have been very frightened too by something because to be that that violent and um yeah, but to a kid, it's very it's very especially a child trying to protect the mother.

00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:22.960
It's very frightening.

00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:24.000
Yeah.

00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:42.000
Now I I wanna um talk about because you were only 14 the first time that you saw Leopold Stakovsky, and he went on to become one of the most important people in your life from that very first encounter until his death in 1977.

00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:48.079
In just a few words, he was one of the most brilliant conductors who ever lived.

00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:57.599
What's extraordinary is that you didn't just admire him from afar, you had a long time, a lot of access to his world.

00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.759
You saw him behind the scenes in rehearsal.

00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.559
Rehearsals and performances in his private life and in the way that he thought about music.

00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:17.519
You were able to watch how he led an orchestra, why he believed what he believed, how he conducted with his eyes instead of his hands, and what it truly takes to be the best at that level.

00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.359
And we'll talk about all of that and your relationship with him.

00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:28.799
But I want to go back to the very beginning, the very first time that you saw him live at the Dell Music Center in Philadelphia.

00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:32.880
It was outdoors with 30,000 people packed in.

00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:43.359
Some were sitting in trees, thousands more listening outside on loudspeakers just because Stakovski was conducting.

00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:47.440
If people knew he was there, they came from everywhere.

00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:59.920
And he was already larger than life, as we said that you know he was associated with the movie Vantasia with Mickey Mouse, and even in Bugs Bunny cartoons, he wasn't just a conductor, he was a cultural figure.

00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:05.359
Can you take us back to that moment that you saw him for the first time live?

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.519
He had been away from Philadelphia for 19 years.

00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:10.400
Wow.

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:19.920
And as I've said, you know, uh he he was, and it's this is not an exaggeration, he was the king of Philadelphia.

00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:39.920
Um because he not only shaped the orchestra to be unlike any other orchestra in the history of the world, this was a col a colorful, flexible organization where they could do anything he wanted, very, very spontaneous.

00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:42.319
And whatever he wanted, they would do.

00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.680
But he, and I'm getting chills, believe it or not.

00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.160
I'm sitting here talking to you, I'm getting chills.

00:23:48.400 --> 00:24:08.880
Um he I've never seen anybody, I've seen a lot of celebrities, many of whom have been friends of mine, and this this man's charisma was so powerful that just to look at him, he was 6'2 without shoes.

00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:24.799
He had this heroic profile, you know, very prominent nose and and a very sensual mouth, and he had this white hair that was swept back behind his ears, and a very, very arrogant attitude.

00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.640
Was like God, you know.

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:34.160
I mean, and he would walk into a room or come on stage, whether it was a rehearsal or concert, didn't matter.

00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.359
And this was a powerfully charismatic figure.

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:49.680
So in 1960, he came back to the Robin Hood Dell, as it was called, for the first time, I think in 20, it was 20, 29 years, 27 years.

00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:52.240
So everybody, and it was a free ball.

00:24:52.400 --> 00:25:02.079
You could get in by clipping a coupon from the newspaper and mailing it in with a self-addressed stamped envelope, and you'd get tickets back.

00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:11.279
And um so my next door neighbor and I, I I I don't know what why my mother didn't go with me.

00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.599
It's possible that she wasn't well enough to go.

00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.960
But I asked my neighbor who was 14 years older than I.

00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:24.559
So I was 14, she was all of 28, um, but I was too young to travel alone.

00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:37.119
So the two of us went out to the Robin Hodel, and uh, and I had become fascinated, captivated by Stakowski because of his recordings that we had at home.

00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:42.640
And I could tell this colorful, sensuous kind of music making.

00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:46.880
It was unlike anything I heard conducted by anybody else.

00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:51.680
And um and I remember the moment because we were very far away.

00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.079
We were several blocks away from the stage.

00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:07.119
It was a huge hall, outdoor concert hall, and um the back door of the stage was open, just I basically I guess for ventilation, and I'm very far-sighted.

00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:17.200
Like I didn't take my eyes off the stage, and I saw Stukovsky just cross from one side of that door to the other, just pass by that door, that open door.

00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:25.200
And I remember to this day, uh I remember seeing him for the first time, what a thrill it was.

00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:36.319
Then everything quieted down and applause, and the another stage door opened, and out he walked and began to conduct.

00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:53.279
And of course, that was unforgettable as far as the sound was concerned, visually, and then off in the distance, uh there was a train and it tooted its horn, and he stopped the orchestra, and they stuck on a dime.

00:26:53.519 --> 00:27:06.240
You didn't hear one straggling player, you know, boom, it stopped, silence, and he just stood there, and a little while later again the train whistle blew.

00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:13.680
But this time, members of the audience left and he flew off stage, and that that was it.

00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:19.599
And he was off the stage for four minutes until finally he decided he was gonna come back.

00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:31.039
But all this drama that I mean nobody else did that if a hor if a train whistle blew, it ended eventually, but the orchestra played not with Stychovsky.

00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:36.480
He was very, very dramatic and um it it was it was wonderful.

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:41.119
It was you know, what we see in a concert hall also affects us.

00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:46.160
It's not just what we hear, it's part of a whole experience.

00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.480
And it's important.

00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:56.880
Yeah, what I loved about your book was it was so visual, and you took us to those places, you know.

00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:10.400
I mean, I could picture every single thing that you were where you were in the charisma of Stuchovsky came through 100%.

00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:16.960
I mean, you you took us to every single venue that you talked about.

00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:29.680
Um, I wanted to mention about the mentors in your life along the way, and Jesse and Bill, the librarians who taught you all the behind-the-scenes tricks.

00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.319
And really anyone who crossed your path, you watched them so closely.

00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:43.279
You listened, you were a sponge, you allowed everyone and everything to be a teacher.

00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:49.519
You allowed those experiences, every venue that you went to, even from when you were 14.

00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:57.839
Uh, are you still that way, still that person that soaks up all the environment and meets the people along the way?

00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:59.759
And you're just so curious.

00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:06.079
And, you know, that kind of humility and openness that's such a rare, powerful trait.

00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:19.839
You know, and I do these book talks, um, some of which are in person, and I look out at at the audience and they're there because I wrote a book, and that for one reason or another intrigued me.

00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:29.839
I am very, very aware, acutely aware, that every human being in that group can teach me a lot about things I don't know.

00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:30.799
That's beautiful.

00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:40.319
And the truth of it is, I would love to have time with each one of them and find out who they are and what they do, and learn.

00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.160
I I have never met anybody that I haven't learned from.

00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:53.119
I get on a bus and s and a bus driver will say something, and I'm I mean, the world is is a huge, fascinating classroom.

00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:54.319
It really is.

00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:04.400
It is, and I'm I'm just, you know, I just feel badly that a lot of people just don't tune into that and take advantage of of what it has to offer.

00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:09.920
You can take a three-minute walk around the block and see fabulous things.

00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:27.039
So it doesn't have to necessarily be uh a symphony orchestra in a great concert hall, but that librarian, um I mean, when I think of of that one sentence he said to me uh that just opened my life.

00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.160
He's I was prowling around backstage.

00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:32.559
I loved that old building.

00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:39.119
It was built during the Civil War, was 18 opened in 1857, has a remarkable history.

00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:45.359
And um, and I loved walking around backstage and opening doors and rooms.

00:30:45.519 --> 00:31:01.839
I didn't know what was in there, and and this one I opened, there were these two men sitting at a work table, and I recognized them because I had seen them backstage, and one would come out and put the music on on the stands for the players.

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:02.400
Yeah.

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:06.400
And as soon as I saw them, uh I started to close the door again.

00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:09.599
I thought, you know, they're working, I can't bother them.

00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:20.000
And as and they saw me, but um, as I was starting to close the door, the librarian said, You may come in.

00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.359
Now that sounds like not much.

00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:26.799
You may come in.

00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.720
That's a very beautiful thing to say to to a young person.

00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:44.559
You may come in, you belong here, I will spend time and effort with you, I will communicate with you, I will teach you, you may come in.

00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.200
It's it's extraordinary.

00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:51.039
So I would run there a couple times a week.

00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:58.880
Um, I would have been there every day, but I had to at least look like I was going to school.

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.359
Sometimes I would leave school and go there.

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:13.359
Um, but after two years, uh I was at and and at that point, you know, they knew me and I could come in, and it was really wonderful.

00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:23.440
And um at that point, I realized after the two years, I had served an old-fashioned apprenticeship.

00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.720
That's what running there after school is all about.

00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:28.720
And lucky for me, Mr.

00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.160
Tainton's assistant quit unexpectedly.

00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.240
I said, here I am, you know.

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:34.880
I know.

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:39.839
See, you're pointing something out though, is that you were always in the right place at the right time.

00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:44.319
I mean, you always put yourself there.

00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:51.759
That's you know, key well, you just kept showing up, and and that really does put you in the right place at the right time all the time.

00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:57.359
I mean, sometimes it can look a little weird, but it I really respect that.

00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:04.160
I mean, you were invited in because you showed up plain and simple.

00:33:04.480 --> 00:33:06.240
Well, a lot of it again was love.

00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:11.839
I I just love that orchestra, and that's that's where the orchestra was.

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.319
That's where I was trying to be.

00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:15.279
Yeah.

00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.400
Well, I really loved that about you, and I always try to do that as well.

00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:28.400
So I guess that's why I really, you know, was so into your book because I really respected the traits, your traits.

00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.079
And I didn't really realize this until I read your book.

00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:52.720
This was um, I didn't know that conductors in that world were often known to be womanizers, and yet you had earned so much respect within the orchestra that even the players were watching out for you, especially when Arthur Fiedler was around because of his reputation.

00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:59.599
And that shows a lot about who you were and about the culture that you were trying to navigate.

00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:06.000
You were protected and respected and taken seriously in spaces that weren't exactly safe or equal for women.

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:11.199
And that, you know, it struck me in that you weren't you didn't seem afraid.

00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:13.119
Why do you think that was?

00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:18.239
I that it's an in that's interesting.

00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:31.199
Um maybe I was just naive, but I think we really, really have to give a lot of credit to the members of the Philadelphia Orchestra at that time.

00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:43.519
Um I had, let's see, there were there were a hundred, I think there were 104, 106 players contracted to play in the Philadelphia Orchestra at that time, around 1964.

00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:48.320
And only four were women, two of whom were harpists.

00:34:48.800 --> 00:35:01.039
And there was Mike Cello teacher, Elsa Hilbert, who was a major character and just a wonderful human being, great, great musician, who would have been first chair if she had been a man.

00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:13.039
Uh, and was Stukovsky who put her in the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1935, first woman other than a harpist to be in any major symphony orchestra.

00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:22.880
Um so he I mean he was really a a um he conducted himself and pun intended in a very groundbreaking way.

00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:31.840
But think of a hundred men to looked out for this this teenager.

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.639
You know, I mean, I I also wasn't dressed in a provocative way.

00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.800
And yeah, I was very naive.

00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:42.079
I was had been very protected at home.

00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:46.639
And um I I that's a very that's incredible to me.

00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.800
I am I am forever grateful to those players.

00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:56.239
Yeah, they really they really seem protected, protective over you.

00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:57.760
That's amazing.

00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:12.800
I have to tell you that Stakovski really fascinated me, and he was a rule breaker, a visionary, a man far ahead of his time, but at the same time, he could be a dictator and a liberator.

00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:16.480
So he held so many contradictions at one time.

00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:22.079
What do you think it was about him that drew you to him the most?

00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:26.000
I was absolutely fascinated by two things.

00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:35.119
Number one, the sound he produced, that how he made music, and number two, it was him as as a person.

00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:41.440
Um again, with this this tremendous charisma and and arrogance.

00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:42.880
And okay.

00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:48.719
And I I I wanted to be there was something that drew me to him.

00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:53.519
And but he was a very sort of forbidding figure.

00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:08.239
Around the time that I had I had gotten my job with the orchestra, Stukovsky was conducting uh the Philadelphia Orchestra, and there was a rehearsal that I really wanted to go to.

00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:18.159
Um I would have loved going to any of his rehearsals, but this one uh I waited for him outside the Academy of Music.

00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:26.079
It was a February day, it was bitter cold, and finally, after quite a long time, his car drove up.

00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:45.440
And this was a closed rehearsal, meaning that no one from the outside was allowed in, not the players' families, not the staff of the Philadelphia or nobody could come in except those the players and the assistant conductor.

00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:46.320
That was it.

00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:52.800
So no, there was only one person sitting in a walk at 3,000, and that was the assistant conductor.

00:37:53.119 --> 00:38:06.400
But um, I waited for Stachowski at the stage door, and when he arrived, I ran over to him and I said, Maestro, may I listen, may I come into your rehearsal?

00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:14.000
And he looked very shocked, and he motioned for me to go into the building ahead of him, and he bent over.

00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.320
He was so much taller than I.

00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:22.320
Um, he bent over and he said, Why do you want to hear the rehearsal?

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:29.840
And I and I cannot to this day, with my memory, which is like a video recorder, yeah, I cannot.

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:30.880
I wish I knew.

00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:41.360
I I said something, I answered something, and he put his head back and laughed, um, which was not, as I write in the book, a characteristic Stychovsky response.

00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:52.320
Um, but he put his hand on my on my shoulder and he said, I will allow you to come into the rehearsal on one condition.

00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:53.840
And I said, What is that?

00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:02.639
And he said that you must come backstage to my dressing room after the rehearsal and tell me your impressions.

00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:03.679
Mm-hmm.

00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:05.840
I took this seriously.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:08.159
I mean, what did he care about?

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.159
A kid, but he did.

00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:11.119
He did.

00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:25.039
And and I ran back, I sat and I listened to his rehearsal for two and a half hours, and I ran back to his dressing room, and that was the beginning of a very long and very close relationship.

00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:32.639
But he was a womanizer too, he probably more than his reputation was was terrible as far as women were concerned.

00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:33.679
Right.

00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:43.039
So, but I there was something instinctive that I knew I I just knew I could trust him and he was worthy of that trust.

00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:44.079
Yeah.

00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:59.840
But I want to ask you about that moment because uh what in the world were you feeling when he said, Yeah, but I want you to tell me, you know, your impression of I mean, I would have been going nuts inside just trying to act calm.

00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:07.679
Yeah, it was it was fantastic, you know, to to to not have space between us.

00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:09.360
Now I had access to him.

00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:13.920
Yeah, and I could go back and I could talk with him because he was fascinating.

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:17.840
And he was the personification of music history.

00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:31.360
He had done um he did the United States premiere of Mahler's massive symphony number eight, the symphony of a thousand, because technically Mahler wrote it for a thousand players.

00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:33.360
Stakowski used 1200.

00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:39.760
Uh, I mean, this man knew all the great composers uh of that era.

00:40:40.159 --> 00:40:49.199
It it was it was it wasn't a dream come true because I would never allow myself to dream that this could happen, but it was wonderful.

00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:56.719
So I went back and I asked him questions about what he had done, and then very abruptly he dismissed me.

00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:59.280
I I was out of there, he was finished.

00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:10.079
Um but the relationship every time he conducted in Philadelphia, I was there and then I got his address and and I started to write to him.

00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:16.719
And it was safe because you know we didn't really know each other at that point, but he answered.

00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:33.920
I I have a a stack of wonderful letters from him, some of which I think there are six or so that are reproduced in the book, and uh and we we corresponded, but he he listened to young people.

00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:40.320
I'm sure he listened to them, and hey adults out there, it's something we should all learn.

00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:44.559
You listened to people, others, and you listen to children.

00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:45.280
Yeah.

00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:46.719
Yeah.

00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.000
I mean, he really did care about what you wanted.

00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:57.360
I would have been very nervous to critique him to his face, but um he really did honestly care about you so much, though.

00:41:57.519 --> 00:41:59.920
I mean, he allowed you to be everywhere he was.

00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:06.480
He wanted you close, and he even wanted you to always wear the same white jacket.

00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:12.079
And it felt like he needed you just as much as you wanted to be in a relationship with him.

00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:21.280
He allowed you backstage close enough to truly study his eyes and the way that he conducted from the front, not from behind.

00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:26.960
Can you take us into the moment when you were able to witness his work from that vantage point?

00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:30.239
It was at the Robin Hodell.

00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:33.199
It was a really hot day.

00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:39.679
So they had that back door right in the center of the stage open just to get some ventilation.

00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:45.920
And again, I was curious, you know, how how much could I get away with?

00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.760
Could I I had never seen him conduct from the front.

00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:54.880
And could I get away with going up there and and and looking at him?

00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:59.440
Because I was only the distance from the podium to the back of the stage.

00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:00.880
That's that's it.

00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:19.440
And uh so I went up the side steps and walked back to where that door was, and there I was, he was making music, and I was facing him, and at one point his he looked at me and his eyes locked with mine, and then he looked away.

00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:21.440